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This is a normal post Interesting.
Good excuse to post this actually, www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kh2SpZP4Cg
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 14:55, Reply)
This is a normal post Mental illness
is so frightening. Not least because people around just don't, can't understand it. Even something as common as depression is incomprehensible to someone who has never had it. And yet we all know what 'flu is, or can relate to a broken arm even if it never happened to us.
 (I helped save b3ta! TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:02, Reply)
This is a normal post Definitely, completely agree with the lack of understanding of depression
There was that Daily Mail article some one posted a while back where some idiot was saying "people think its fashionable to be depressed", and basicly said people should "snap out of it".

Depression isn't just people 'feeling sorry for them selves', I suppose one way to describe it is a disease that causes errors in proccessing events, feelings etc. Thus when people are depressed they catastrophise the smallest things, more inclined to make assumptions as to what other people are thinking, a complete lack of perspective etc.

Actually there's a bit that explains the parity between the kind of processing in a clinically depressed patients and a schizophrenic patients in this book Ive got: (Feeling Good, by David Burns, I really recommend it)

" Depressed individuals were compared with schizophrenic patients and with undepressed persons in their ability to interpret the meaning of a number of proverbs, such as "a stitch in time saves nine". Both the schizophrenic and depressed patients made many logical errors and had difficulty in extracting the meaning of the proverbs. They were overly concrete and couldn't make accurate generalizations. Although the severity of the defect was obviously less profound and bizzarre in the depressed patients than in the schizophrenic group, the depressed individuals were clearly abnormal as compared with the normal subjects"

I think there should be more information about what Clinical Depression is, not only so people like that Daily Mail bitch shut the hell up, but I think (certainly with my self) that knowing what is actually going on with your self when you're depressed can actually help you better find ways to cope with it. I think GP's need more training in how to cope with and diagnose clinically depressed patients. The amount of times I've heard of doctors prescribe pills to friends who aren't clinically depressed but are simply struggling to adjust to break ups and stuff, I think its negligence. And other times when serious clinical depression has gone unchecked and led to the worst possible outcome, just beyond frustration. And don't expect it to get any better, Big Society = Mental Health care being increasingly dealt with by underfunded charities...
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:29, Reply)
This is a normal post Good post

(I helped save b3ta! Nostrebor can't be everything all the time., Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:33, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm not ashamed
to admit I suffer 'the black dog', as Churchill called it. But now I know what it is, and what it does, it doesn't seem to effect me as much, or as often. I see it coming now and I take measures to get me through. Either they work or i'm just getting better; who knows?
 (I helped save b3ta! TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:43, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm stricken too. Don't cope too well but it's nice to be able to say so.

(I helped save b3ta! Bela Lugosi's Dad, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:54, Reply)
This is a normal post Knowing it
is half way to coping with it.
 (I helped save b3ta! TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:57, Reply)
This is a normal post ^This

(I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:05, Reply)
This is a normal post Exactly, I'd say it would be the coping strategies
I don't think its something that can just fix it's self over time (though I may be wrong). But stuff like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy has been proven to be extremely effective, more so than medication in a lot of cases, and essentially CBT is just a method of creating coping strategies and understanding the processes that are going on.

The problem is the stigma that goes along with mental illness, and what I think is terrible is the stigma that is still with depression given the sheer numbers of people that suffer from it. I've been trying to handle it my self since I was first diagnosed, though my GP back then did handle it incredibly well, its been going on for too long now, and I feel like I should start some proper CBT with a therapist to sort it out once and for all (though the book Feeling good which started the whole CBT thing has helped). Problem is my cousin recently got a mortgage, and obviously had to get Life Insurance to get it, one inconsequential mention of 'anxiety' on her medical records got her life insurance claim application rejected (until she got a second opinion etc. etc.) Now with me with 'Clinically Depressed' on my medical records already, I have no idea if in the future I'll be able to get a mortgage? And its actually putting me off going to get more help which I increasingly feel I need, I just don't want to ruin my chances of getting a mortgage etc more than going to the doctor in the first place has? It shouldn't be right that insurance companies etc can discriminate over something like mental illness?
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:59, Reply)
This is a normal post Officially
I don't believe insurance companies can access any info you don't give them. This was one of the arguments about ID cards with medical records on; then they could. However if you fail to tell them then make a claim they might not pay. But only if they prove it was a pre-existing condition that you were aware of. Some insist on a medical, so they will know all about you from that. But my understanding is that a doctor will only give out information with your permission. For now, anyway. When big Brother really gets rolling.... *tin foil hat on*
 (I helped save b3ta! TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:33, Reply)
This is a normal post Ah right,
Well that's reassuring,Thanks :)
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:36, Reply)
This is a normal post One time I applied for a job at the civil service,
and with the letter I got inviting me to the interview came a form asking me for sign over to them the right to access my medical records. Fuck that, I thought. At the very least offer me a position first.
 (I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:55, Reply)
This is a normal post Very true
I've had dark periods most of my life, but had pretty much always managed to establish a 'baseline' - i.e. when I start to notice I'm slipping, I set a 'things that I must keep going no matter what' i.e. Job etc. And letting the other parts of life slide a bit with a reduced level of guilt.

Due to circumstances I had a major period in the last two years, that pretty much stopped me from managing any aspect of my life. Dark days indeed, and very hard to explain to people who just want to see you getting on with your life. Very hard to be able to go for a job interview when a knock on the door or a telephone call leads to massive panic.
 (foxnsox, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 19:31, Reply)
This is a normal post Well said

(I helped save b3ta! Bela Lugosi's Dad, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:53, Reply)
This is a normal post very good post
I can empathise with a lot of points made there, will certainly look out for the book you mentioned.

One point though.. "underfunded charities" - that's not necessarily so. The charities in my experience are exceptionally well funded (maybe not in specifically mental health, but certainly in other areas), but they are stupendously bad at managing themselves or their employees. I mean catastrophically bad. I'd love to whistle blow about one particular charity which is wasting huge sums of money in the name of "charidy" ... but I won't just yet!
 (I helped save b3ta! wideeye slightly pickled, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:55, Reply)
This is a normal post Ha, no doubt you're right
Had a friend who did the whole cold calling thing for charities. He'd get a years subscription from these people, problem is it would take that years subscription to pay the company he worked for. Criminal I think, if I was donating to a charity in that way I'd want every penny to actually go to the charity.
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:03, Reply)
This is a normal post And I'd like to correct that as well!
In my experience, the large charities may have the enviable position of being able to waste money, but almost all of the ones I have worked with have been painfully underfunded and often the people working in them do so for free or just enough to cover their costs..........
 (I helped save b3ta! Si o doom Fund me! No catering cost involved! bit.ly/1bFtzN2, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:14, Reply)
This is a normal post I know of one
major charity that is close to criminal in its property dealings and there are more than a few whose execs earn more than MPs.
 (I helped save b3ta! TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:24, Reply)
This is a normal post O.o

(I helped save b3ta! Bela Lugosi's Dad, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:30, Reply)
This is a normal post I don't doubt it, I have seen some bloody stupid usage of funds in my time
But I tend to work with smaller charities and someone once told me off for it! Saying that its crazy that they should all get paid when I don't and I was being stupid, they all get paid crazy amounts, when i mentioned that my mum was the chair of the charity and it she takes no money at all from it he shut up.

I realise that the statement above was meant for the large charities, often the ones that can afford street canvassers, but there is a large percentage of charities out there that struggle to fund anything, they often have a budet that allows them to survive this year and then without fresh funding and help every year, simply don;t exist!
 (I helped save b3ta! Si o doom Fund me! No catering cost involved! bit.ly/1bFtzN2, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:30, Reply)
This is a normal post I actually run a charity!
So i know what you are saying. I do get paid; but I work 7 days a week and some evenings too. Even some nights if the alarms go off! For that I get just under 17k to live on. I live alone and have a mortgage. I wouldn't do another job for twice the money, don't get me wrong, but it makes my blood boil to see the execs of big charaties taking 100k a year home.
 (I helped save b3ta! TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:41, Reply)
This is a normal post Couldn't agree more!
That's why it'll all change when I sweep to power...........
 (I helped save b3ta! Si o doom Fund me! No catering cost involved! bit.ly/1bFtzN2, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:55, Reply)
This is a normal post One time I was in a pub and the guy at the next table
was trying to argue that depressed people simply "couldn't be bothered". Well I guess that's a symptom of depression, but I really don't know why it's so difficult for people to understand, that sometimes people get chronically down in the dumps for no external reasons that they can do anything about.
 (I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:49, Reply)
This is a normal post Yup
Surely most people will know at least one person who has committed suicide for instance? You can't get more of a stark example that something more than just "being a bit glum" is going on?

This is probably the most moving and expressive ways of describing it I've seen: (cant remember who posted the Taylor Mali stuff a while back, but thanks for introducing me to him, just brilliant)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESrzN-JkKsM
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 17:20, Reply)
This is a normal post I don't think I know anyone who killed themselves,
I know people who have made attempts. My old housemate used to invite all his goth friends round for parties and we had to hide all the razor blades to stop them cutting themselves in the bathroom. But then we realised it was better to leave them there because they'd just smash our glasses instead, and a clean razor blade is probably a better thing for them to do it with.
 (I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 17:40, Reply)
This is a normal post Eesh, not the kind of party I'de like to go to :S
Maybe I'm unusual in that I've known two, a friend and an uncle, as well as seeing the aftermath of a friends father's suicide. One of those things, when you're out of an episode you say "I could never do that to my friends and family", just when you're in an episode you simply don't see it in those terms, quite the opposite infact. Thus the interesting parity with schizophrenia, how you're whole understanding of your life can be totally turned on its head? Its a very powerful thing, which is why I think there should be a lot more understanding of it, and more attempts to break down the taboos surrounding it. I think Stephen Fry's documentary a few years ago was very good at that, need more to be made though.
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 17:50, Reply)
This is a normal post I never got so bad as to seriously consider killing myself,
I just wanted my life to stop being terrible. And it was terrible. I was never convinced it was only something wrong with my brain, but my doc just put me on one sort of pills after another as if eventually we'd find the right one that would magically stop me from being a social outcast. It made me feel dismissed, this assumption that my feelings were only down to bad chemicals, maybe for some people that is the case but just as happy people can't understand that there can be something wrong with your thinking, doctors don't seem to get that there can be something wrong with your experiences. They are trained to imagine you as a machine, I guess.
 (I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:02, Reply)
This is a normal post circumstances don't help.
www.b3ta.com/questions/letterstheywillneverread/post658138
 (I helped save b3ta! TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:21, Reply)
This is a normal post I don't get what you are telling me here,
this reads like a circumstance, and not a chemical. Sadly, this circumstance is in the past and therefore not liable to change, although perhaps you can change your interpretation of it.

Nevertheless, I'm not saying that chemicals are never the problem, and circumstances always are, I'm saying that circumstances were my problem, and there is not a one-size-fits-all solution to every case of depression. Some people do get wonky brain chemistry. Other people get dealt a genuinely shit hand now and then.
 (I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:27, Reply)
This is a normal post And that was a genuinely shit hand that you got dealt right there,
but it really wasn't your fault, as much as you feel that it was the consequence of your decision, no reasonable person could possibly expect you to have foreseen it.
 (I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:44, Reply)
This is a normal post Sorry to hear that Sundae
That's something no one should feel responsibility for, especially from the age of 15. Hope you're working through it?
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:34, Reply)
This is a normal post Long time ago now.
But I feel it, most days. Sometimes for 20 seconds, sometimes longer.
 (I helped save b3ta! TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:46, Reply)
This is a normal post I suppose it boils down to the nature nurture thing?
I think certainly people can be genetically predisposed to depression (there's a family history of it with me, and I cant think of any experiences per say that could have caused it) but also I think someone's experiences definitely can be a major if not all encompassing factor, which is possibly where CBT can be most effective?

Back when I did Psychology AS level there was a good explanation of another way of seeing the nature nurture argument. With Autism it was argued that its a bit like seed which needs the right conditions to grow? So someone could be genetically predisposed towards autism but it would require certain experiences (I'd imagine difficult to avoid or define experiences) for that predisposition to develop into autism?

I'm sorry to hear that your experience with your doctor left you feeling that way? I guess there are as many types of depression as there are people, there's no Haynes manual for the mind. GPs obviously have to know a certain amount about a lot, which is why there needs to be more mental health care provision so they can refer patients to more specialist diagnosis?
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:25, Reply)
This is a normal post I imagine that each side can induce the other,
futile circumstances disturb your brain chemistry, and brain chemistry makes your circumstances seem more futile than they really are. Perhaps when this happens it doesn't matter so much which one came first as long as you can break the cycle, but if the original cause is still there when you come off the meds, you'll only end up back on them again.

I had to practically beg to be referred to a specialist, and then I was on a waiting list for months, and eventually my therapist was bloody useless.

What I really needed was some kind of coaching in my social skills, because basically I've been bullied since I started school with jam jar glasses and a funny accent, was too intellectual for my own popularity at a rough state comprehensive, and then wound up in a university with a seeming public-school educated majority. As a result I ended up finding it difficult to relate to people face-to-face.
 (I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:38, Reply)
This is a normal post I think what you were talking about is the difference between reactive depression and clinical depression
The two can overlap but anti-depressants are only really effective for clinical depression.
 (I helped save b3ta! Sheriff John Bunnell https://twitter.com/thewonderfulgam, Mon 7 Mar 2011, 0:18, Reply)
This is a normal post A B3tan
commited suicide not too long ago. Seemed a nice guy too; just mixed up. Depression and suicide don't always go hand in hand. One of the clever agonies of depression is knowing how suicide will make others feel. There were times I considered it. But to die that way would make my dad think he had failed, and he hadn't. Or some poor train driver who might always wonder if he could have stopped in time. Even in death, you heap pain on others. The sort of pain that you can't stand in the first place. It is no win.
 (I helped save b3ta! TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:00, Reply)
This is a normal post I think my dad thinks that anyway,
he keeps trying to convince me I'm autistic or something for having no ambition, and I don't think my mum will ever forgive me for not wanting to learn a musical instrument when I was at school.

I keep meaning to read this guy's book
 (I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:06, Reply)
This is a normal post It's all my fault
: (
 (I helped save b3ta! --- ---, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:53, Reply)
This is a normal post Not it's not.
It's yours.
 (pissflaps. FSPW, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:02, Reply)
This is a normal post They know!

(I helped save b3ta! RedHouse over yonder, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 17:03, Reply)
This is a normal post until recently
I had been working with mentally ill clients in Brooklyn. From what I've seen, the meds only really do so much, one of my best guys who always took his meds still believed that I could read his mind as I owned a computer. It made for interesting conversations though, he would tell a joke and then pause for a second to see if I laughed while he thought of the punchline, when I didn't he would assume I had heard it before...
It really is quite bad though, and unfortunately the biggest problem with treatment is that there are so many clients that all require intensive personal care, there aren't enough hours in the day sometimes.
 (I helped save b3ta! Arsonade is saving up for a new box of hummus, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 17:33, Reply)
This is a normal post Can ask about how people would get referred to you?
Is it something that someone would refer themselves for? Or is it generally a family member or other? I imagine suffering from it making it hard to actually tell something was wrong maybe?
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 17:54, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm not a therapist
I was just a Rehabilitation Aide (its like a Case Manager), so I was hired by an agency and was assigned clients that way. People in Brooklyn tend to enter the mental health system by way of a particularly bad incident. As the video showed, much of the paranoia is directed towards the meds, so many times people with schizophrenia will not take them for one day (this can also happen by way of overconfidence, which is arguably even more sad), and then as they continue to avoid them, they tend to get worse. So eventually they wind up running through the street naked fighting demons that only they can see. They're picked up by the police, brought to the wards where one way or another they are convinced of their mental illness, and then they almost never leave the system. This is the most typical way that one enters the mental health system unfortunately (at least where I worked) Once they're in the system, it all works on recommendations and quotas amongst mental health professionals; while you're in the system, you tend to have little control over where you wind up going.
If all of this sounds quite bad, that's because it is, everyone knows that the system is broken, but a combination of red tape, an overabundance of people with mental illness, and a lack of ideas about what to do about it keeps it that way. On the plus side, some people eventually leave the system and do quite well, but its a rare occurrence.
Sorry if that was a bit of a rant, its all a bit aggravating from the inside, but from the outside-at least we're all trying.
 (I helped save b3ta! Arsonade is saving up for a new box of hummus, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:49, Reply)
This is a normal post Not a rant at all
Very sad that's how it works, someone on here posted some photos of a Mental Health place they went to a couple of years ago, just by looking at it it didn't seem like the most constructive of environments? I don't know how the system in the UK differs from the US, I hope its slightly better? I guess its a lot of hard working people trying to the best they can in an unhelpful environment. I don't know much about schizophrenia, I don't think the way its handled in the media is especially helpful, definitely around reports of Cannabis etc, tends to be described as some sort of living death? "I lost my son to cannabis" etc. The video above was a enlightening insight, as well as what you've said there. Food for thought.
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:59, Reply)
This is a normal post The media
seems to be a bit more helpful on this side of the pond, I've heard horror stories about the daily mail, I'm glad we don't have them over here so much.
Cannabis does dot lead to schizophrenia (although it can act as a trigger for those who have the illness already)
However, many of my clients were former crackheads, I don't know of the actual studies, but after working there...well I wouldn't recommend it.
At any rate, Schizophrenia is no living death, from what I've seen, its just living with a lot more fear than average. When they're stable though, they can be completely normal people, I knew guys who had not had episodes for years, even in the system clients would get married, practice art, play basketball, all sorts of stuff, it is by no means the end of the road, just a bit of a rougher one.
 (I helped save b3ta! Arsonade is saving up for a new box of hummus, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 19:25, Reply)
This is a normal post I think it was me who posted the pics
It was of a very old mental hospital that worked in just before it closed down. The majority of them are modern, clean and with pretty good facilities. Not saying they can't be scary at times, they're just not old red brick asylums.
 (I helped save b3ta! Sheriff John Bunnell https://twitter.com/thewonderfulgam, Mon 7 Mar 2011, 0:16, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm currentry
training as a counselor, and hopefully am going to be working in the system, but with kids who are in and out of care/foster kids etc.
I have run a few work shops with them before and it really hard, but they seem to relate to me.
mental illness should be taken seriously, however the NHS and the government seem to push cbt a lot and it isn't the correct treatment. because if your between levels there is nothing for you unless you go private
 (I helped save b3ta! The invisible ham Fig rolls are the best, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:50, Reply)
This is a normal post I was wondering about that
So you can't get CBT on the NHS? I suppose thats why GPs are so over keen to prescribe medication?
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 19:02, Reply)
This is a normal post I wondered whether CBT was available on the NHS
and found that it was. There is a very good website that provides excellent computer-based CBT (well, it helped me to handle my 'darker days'). They also provide counselling in conjunction with the other resources. You can choose to purchase any of the various options but the NHS paid to provide them to me. If you want the link to it then message me.

I'm not saying it's the best treatment for everyone and definitely isn't a 'cure' but it certainly helped teach me how to prepare for some of the blacker times.

Oh, and I don't have any connection to the company.
 (I helped save b3ta! Fr_Jerry_McGwier looked over both shoulders at, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 21:42, Reply)
This is a normal post If the thread is still open
Have a confession from me - complete breakdown about 15 year ago. I now cry at films, all of them. Sometimes I choose things to cry at. I take antidepressants every day. What you need to survive is faith - not religious faith, I'm an atheist - but faith in yourwelf, your friends, your doctor, your family, whatever it takes.

I wish everyone on this thread all the best. And would be happy to chat as a survivor to anyone who needs it.
 (I helped save b3ta! nameleft has bought a new telescope, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 19:41, Reply)
This is a normal post Its amazing really, for such an isolating thing, when you get a situation like this, the amount of people going through similar experiences
Been a good conversation to have here I think, its helped me. Should probably get back to essay writing now :S
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 19:56, Reply)
This is a normal post I agree with you about having faith. You have to remain calm and be confident that there is still something you can rely on.
In the end all you need is yourself, but that can be the hardest thing to find.
 (I am a cucumber. Save me, Popobawa!, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 22:20, Reply)
This is a normal post Utterly terrifying.
Thanks for posting, I had an "uncle" (technically he was my step-granddad) with schizophrenia and this has helped show a little of life might have been like for him. Luckily he was very good at taking his medication.

It is no wonder that schizophrenics do such seemingly 'crazy' things, the pressure from those voices...
 (sanity challenged, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 20:00, Reply)
This is a normal post What's more terrifying
is the non schizophrenics who hear voices. Their trounle is they have such massive egos, that chatter away to them, they end up running things like entire civilisations. Compared to them schizophrenics are pretty benign - drugs can usually fix them, unlike the ego maniacs.
 (I helped save b3ta! buffet_the_appetite_slayer ٩(●̮̃•)۶ jacked in to the ICE on, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 21:43, Reply)