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This is a link post We've got back control from the EU for our parliament!
Oh oops, no actually it turns out we now just have a Tory dictatorship that will pass laws by bypassing parliament entirely.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 9:52, Reply)
This is a normal post 'pass laws by bypassing parliament entirely'
You mean like the EU Commission?
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 9:57, Reply)
This is a normal post I trust the EU Commision's judgement and interests significantly more than I trust the UK Government's...

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:21, Reply)
This is a normal post So vote for the other parties?
Perhaps engage in democracy?
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:26, Reply)
This is a normal post It's not that I'm particularly anti-Tory.
I don't really subscribe to the popular "Ohhhh! Look how evil and sinister these Tories are! Aren't they baddies!" attitude. I'm far from their biggest fan, but I still think they're doing a better job than a Labour government run by a bunch of Corbynite fuckwits would.
At the end of the day, no matter who you vote into power, they're going to be thinking of themselves first. It's all about money and power, regardless of your political affiliation.
Yes, I know that's the case the world over. But I tend to have more faith that the EU Commission's agenda will be in the better interests of our little island as a whole rather than the agenda of a bunch of Tories.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:32, Reply)
This is a normal post Well said.
However I'm definitely anti-May, she's utterly incompetent. Let's give that bald fella from the fence sitters a go.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:34, Reply)
This is a normal post Oh yeah, I'm definitely anti-May.
But like you said, not because she's some kind of malevolent she-witch, which seems to be the opinion of most of the idiots sitting at their ethically sourced breakfast table, whilst dunking a copy of the Guardian into their lentil tea, but because she was a fucking substitution and is hopelessly incompetent at her job.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:40, Reply)
This is a normal post She's about to make a "major speech" on the EU in the next few days apparently.
MY guess is she'll either backtrack or announce we're walking away from negotiations.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:01, Reply)
This is a normal post We're a bit fucked either way now.
Can you imagine how fucking stupid we'll look as a nation if we vote out of the EU, but can't seal the deal and end up staying a member? We'll be more of a laughing stock than we already are for voting out in the first place. The whole thing is a fucking shitshow.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:11, Reply)
This is a normal post Best make a clean break rather than go back to the ex.
I'm genuinely surprised how well it's going to be honest.

Everyone and their dog was predicting the end of the world would happen immediately after voting for brexit.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:29, Reply)
This is a normal post It still will.
We've not actually left yet. When we do, we're going to be fucked up the arse (sans lube) by all and sundry.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:32, Reply)
This is a normal post We explicitly told everything would be fucked immediately after the vote.
They were wrong then, maybe they'll be wrong now.

Even if it's hard the alternative is being a single state in the United States of Europe. Personally I'll accept a few hedge fund managers cutting their wrists in order to avoid that.

Be interesting to see how some of the states that are still recovering from soviet occupation are going to accept EU rule.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:47, Reply)
This is a normal post seeing as most people expected the referendum result to be debated for some time
and were stunned when Cameron shat himself, set it in motion and ran away the next morning, I'd say your memory of being explicitly told what would happen the next day is incorrect
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 12:06, Reply)
This is a normal post I remember the threat of a "punishment budget" in the event of a leave vote quite well.
Tax rises and massive cuts to fill a 30 billion black hole after the country goes to shit. Which we were told repeatedly would happen in response to a leave vote not the act of leaving itself.

Probably would have happened too if cameron hadn't scarpered leaving osborne unprotected.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 12:15, Reply)
This is a normal post the punishment budget was something the Tories came up with wasn't it?
65 Tory backbenchers name for Osborne's plans according to a quick Google, hardly "everyone and their dog"
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 12:20, Reply)
This is a normal post Tory plan announced whilst sharing a stage with Labour, (Alister Darling)
The 65 back benchers were saying they wouldn't vote for it if it touch health or the police.
He appeared to have the support of the rest of the party.

And by everyone and their dog I meant almost every financial expert speaking about the matter.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 12:26, Reply)
This is a normal post So 65 MPs and "every financial expert" said we would be fucked "immediately after the vote"
if Osborne ran a specific budget that those MPs would still be allowed to vote on.

I'm confused, surely a budget that would allow further voting would take quite some time to prepare and implement if won. How is that immediately after the Brexit referendum? and where are these dogs?
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 12:37, Reply)
This is a normal post Never mind the dogs.
I want to know why I wasn't immediately fucked after the vote. Was at least 3 weeks until I got my leg over.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 12:47, Reply)
This is a normal post Not sure of the point you're trying to make here.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 12:49, Reply)
This is a normal post
Brexit has already fucked our economy - Our currency is bollixed and our exports and manufacturing haven't risen to counter that.

Regardless of whether you think it's right/wrong/pink/grey/hard Brexit has thus far been a financial disaster.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 13:08, Reply)
This is a normal post Isn't unemployment currently at a 42 year low?

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 13:33, Reply)
This is a normal post Nope, not at all.
The problem with the official rate is that it falls if an unemployed worker hasnít sought a job in the past four weeks or canít start one in the next fortnight. Once they stop seeking work, fewer people are classed as unemployed but no jobs have been created.

So you're right in that this government are the best so far at redefining what being unemployed means. I know people aren't keen on links to "left wing" sources, so I'm just using right wing ones or academia.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:05, Reply)
This is a normal post As I said, I'm confused too
You said "Everyone and their dog was predicting the end of the world would happen immediately after voting for brexit"

But the closest you've come to backing that up is mentioning some Tory MPs and finance experts not liking Osborne's threatened extra austerity plans.

Naysayers have been very pessimistic about what will happen because of Brexit especially when it does actually happen. But I don't recall anyone saying the world would end immediately after the referendum, especially when they assumed it would only be giving the government food for thought.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 13:29, Reply)
This is a normal post Ok here you go all wrapped up in one handy package

And in repsonce to this Armageddon
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 13:50, Reply)
This is a normal post I hate to defend Tories but the video clip shows Cameron talking about "after leaving europe"
not the day after the referendum.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:01, Reply)
This is a normal post Well i've tried.
Even copied and pasted a nice graphic with the heading "Immediate impact of a vote to leave the EU on the UK"

Add to that the chancellor was threatening the whole county with a punishment budget to counter it. Not one in 2 years time after all the negotiations etc.

But hey, not here to convert you.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:09, Reply)
This is a normal post even if that was about the day after the referendum
and not after leaving Europe as the people talking actually say with their own voices.
That's still just a Tory scare pamphlet, not "Everyone and their dog"
That's all I'm trying to helpfully correct you on, most remoaners are concerned for the results of actually leaving Europe. It was only the Tories scared about losing their jobs that were shitting themselves and predicting armageddon on the 24th June 2016
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:17, Reply)
This is a normal post It was certainly about the day after. Point clearly made at the time.

Whilst I agree it was a scare pamphlet it wasn't just the tories.

Created by the treasury, backed up by the Bank of England and IMF and quoted by every bloody financial expert the media could dig up.

Not watched the video of dumb and dumber so no idea what they're saying.
Just providing you with what was given out to us at the time.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:42, Reply)
This is a normal post so we are at least in agreement that it was the government and people in power
and not the general public "remoaners" (everybody and their dog)
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:45, Reply)
This is a normal post Ah so that's the bloody context for all this?
Yes, I was talking about government, financial experts, media commentators ext.

Not the general public, they were the target of all this to get them to vote they way business and government wanted them to.

Nearly worked too, but they just jumped the shark and went too far.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:49, Reply)
This is a normal post But this is exactly coming true?
We've already seen our average real wages fall by about 3% .

Exchange rate has already dropped 13%.

House prices? Dunno, I live in London, they'll never fall here.

What did you expect rioting and every city centre being set on fire? So far all of this is coming true, not being proved false.

We seem to have a choice between "hard" brexit vs paying a huge divorce bill so that 30+b figure is looking far too conservative too.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:15, Reply)
This is a normal post You don't think some of that could be from that little global financial crisis?
Just a bit?

And if a bunch for market spivs hadn't bet the wrong way about the result maybe the fall would't have been so hard.

Still a lower pound should be good for home grown exports.

House prices still going up, don't worry.
Mines gone up 68% in 5 years, bet a whole load of people would like to see them fall actually. Must be fucking hard being a first time buyer now.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:57, Reply)
This is a normal post
When other countries in the EU have gone up in the same period, no it's quite evidently NOT from the global financial crisis :)

Exports haven't gone up - We'd have to produce something that other people wanted to buy.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 15:05, Reply)
This is a normal post we've just had a hike in inflation instead
The equivalent of a tax rise (ie everyone's poorer) but the exchequer receives nothing. GO US
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 13:55, Reply)
This is a normal post you know you're talking to an expert when they start comparing global trading partners to ex-girlfriends
It's the same, yeah? Treat em keen keep em mean etc
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 13:50, Reply)
This is a normal post Was wondering when you were going to pipe up.
Too busy wanking over Juncker's little speech this morning?
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 13:55, Reply)
This is a normal post give it a year and we'll be playing non-stop mournful piano under their window while the rest of the world looks on laughing

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:14, Reply)
This is a normal post Not true.
There's no way we'll able to afford to import a piano
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:17, Reply)
This is a normal post it will be British made
More of a xylophone made of old pots and pans
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:21, Reply)
This is a normal post ..or of Farage's grey and yellow teeth

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:55, Reply)
This is a normal post That's not my recollection
I remember quite a few people going "on the whole I think we'll be worse off if we vote to leave." Martin Lewis, who doesn't really have much of an axe to grind, and Jeremy Clarkson for another.

They seem to have been right. We seem to be worse off than we would have been had we not voted to leave, broadly. There is also mounting evidence to indicate that we will suffer much more if we exit the customs union.

If your reason for being pleased is that although we are suffering as a country (inflation, exchange rate, skilled & unskilled people leaving, fall in students, lower economic growth than predicted etc.) this is not as cataclysmic as SOME people said it would be, then I'm afraid I can't agree with your positive outlook.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:00, Reply)
This is a normal post no matter who you vote into power, they're going to be thinking of themselves first
I agree. But also, I would much rather be able to get rid of those proposing legislation by voting them out than not.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:06, Reply)
This is a normal post I'd much rather keep my job and my house and be able to afford things

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:23, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm just
astounded that you have a job.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 15:48, Reply)
This is a normal post you voted for brexit mate
I expect you're astounded by plug sockets
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 16:12, Reply)
This is a normal post Nothing like a massive assumption is there?
Always goes well.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 16:14, Reply)
This is a normal post an assumption proved correct at least once a week on /links for the last 18 months

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 16:23, Reply)
This is a normal post Pfffffffft
I've seen your posts.
Most involve you getting completely out-debated by Prufrock.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 16:30, Reply)
This is a normal post twice this week I reckon

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 16:35, Reply)
This is a normal post Out-debated by prufrock twice this week, you reckon? Probably
All I have seen from remainers on here is that they resort to vague statistics and "mounting evidence" (yet there is none ever cited) and then something base like "you are idiots". Assumptions indeed, chairmanmiaow.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 23:14, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm not here to change your mind love, sorry

(, Thu 14 Sep 2017, 10:00, Reply)
This is a normal post 100%

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:32, Reply)
This is a normal post as if it matters, here's what actually happens:
The European Commission has the initiative to propose legislation. During the ordinary legislative procedure, the Council (which are ministers from member state governments) and the European Parliament (elected by citizens) can make amendments and must give their consent for laws to pass.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:36, Reply)
This is a normal post You mean
it bypasses our parliament entirely?
Thanks for confirming.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:38, Reply)
This is a normal post Of course the EU legislative process bypasses our parliament
if you don't think that's a good idea for a trading bloc of 27 countries which in many cases have upper and lower houses and totally uncoordinated legislative agendas - then there's no talking to you. Also, I was correcting your statement about the Commission - I don't want to get sucked into another tedious EU debate now the horse has bolted...
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:44, Reply)
This is a normal post I think you
just misinterpreted it but happy not to have a pointless debate.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:58, Reply)
This is a normal post I think you don't know what you're talking about

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:23, Reply)
This is a normal post It's a good way
to shut down debate.
Nuff said, innit?
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 15:47, Reply)
This is a normal post It does not bypass our government though
The part of our government which is in Brussels gets to have a say.

Your argument is like saying Nottingham council decisions do not go through Bristol council so they are undemocratic.

This is of course utter rubbish.

They still happen through a democratic process under the supervision of elected officials.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 13:58, Reply)
This is a normal post the 'anti-democratic' argument is all related to xenophobia and parochialism
It's not rational if you think about any of it for a millisecond
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 14:11, Reply)
This is a normal post Maybe think about it a tad longer than that eh?
And if you want to talk democracy wasn't the EU recently threatening to remove Polands voting rights?
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 15:04, Reply)
This is a normal post Personally,
I enjoy the way they have forced hundreds of thousands of the people they are meant to represent into poverty in order to make political points.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 15:11, Reply)
This is a normal post I'll humour you
Can you tell me how we can remove those parts of our government from Brussels who get to have this say in a democratic manner if they turn out not to be doing as we'd like?
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 15:58, Reply)
This is a normal post You mean like when Labour did the same thing when in a minority government?
And achieved it by a democratic vote in the commons.

Also if they lost control of the committees all the thousands of laws that need to be converted into UK law by 2019 won't be and we'll get the cliff edge Brexit everyones moaning about.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 10:41, Reply)
This is a normal post Except that was just another tory lie, this time from Dominic Grieve (who seems like one of the more principled of them normally
When Labour lost its majority, the select committees had equal numbers of government and opposition MPs on them. This from the Commons Library, which is probably as reliable a source as you're going to get. The reason the government can't guarantee that it gets its way, is that the electorate decided that it shouldn't earlier this year. The government seem to regard this particular will of the people with less reverence than some other democratic mandates. And as for the bill itself, the levels of recursion involved in tow clauses which allow the bill itself to be amended by executive order, by any minister of the crown whenever they feel like it seems a bit bloody much.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:19, Reply)
This is a normal post You might be right, but none of the interviewer bods brought that on on the today program.
I'll wait for the fact check on that.

However it was voted through parliament so not totally undemocratic and if Labour SNP were to get control of the committees it would royally fuck up brexit.

Especially labour who appear to be in the process of changing their line.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:26, Reply)
This is a normal post but that's the point
May asked the electorate to endorse her position on Brexit, strengthen her hand. Instead it gave her the finger. You can't play one mandate off against another. To proceed as though she had a majority, particularly when the role of the select committees is critical in scrutinising the torrent of new Brexit legislation, is undermining the sovereignty of parliement, just for convenience. There would be nothing to stop Corbyn doing the same thing, should the May government collapse in the next few months.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:43, Reply)
This is a normal post Mays campagn was crap, Corbyns was lies and deception.
Nobody came out of it smelling of roses.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 11:54, Reply)
This is a normal post Also given that both parties were anti-brexit until the ref, it was hypocritical as fuck
I'll never vote for either of those fucking turncoat populist parties ever again - They've made it quite clear they don't have the countries or the peoples best interests at heart.
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 12:59, Reply)
This is a normal post Welcome to the Green party.

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 16:17, Reply)
This is a normal post Normally vote green, voted labour this time and still can't feel good about it.

(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 16:22, Reply)
This is a normal post haha
Britian is such a mess
(, Wed 13 Sep 2017, 15:10, Reply)