Do I have a case?
This happened over the phone recently:

Me: Hello, council, I've just had a final demand for council tax payment with an extra £80 court fee thrown into the mix. I didn't get the first letter(s), however. I'd like to pay my tax without the legal fee, please.

Council: But the first two letters explained the legal fee.

Me: But I didn't get them. I clearly want to pay you, though, as you only have my name and address because I called you the first day I was in the house to give you my details.

Council: Not our fault.

Me: Did you send the reminder by recorded delivery?

Council: We don't have to. Our computer says we sent them.

I'm quite a fan of letters, and I will write one if there's one that could beat these gits. Any thoughts?
(gobsh, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:25, 23 replies)

I've had a similar bit of confusion
a couple of years back, about letters for council tax which I had not received, and they ended up being very reasonable about dropping the fees.

So I think you have a good chance, IF you can get someone reasonable on the end of the phone (this was the difficult bit).
(SnowyTheWereRabbit the Leporid from Hell, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:28, closed)

You're unlikely to get away with it
The days when 'lost in the post' worked are long gone.

Provided they were correctly addressed, chances of one letter going astray are remote. Chances of two of them going astray are virtually zero.

Your case is to persuade the court you didn't receive the two letters. You got the final demand, so it seems they have the correct details.

You're hosed.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:29, closed)

I fear you're right
I tried to reason as I suspect Snowy above did. I said I'd pay in full over the phone if they'd waive the fee. They wouldn't have that, so I may well have told them, politely of course, where they could shove it.

I'm going to have to cough up, aren't I?
(gobsh, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:37, closed)

Probably
I think I was exceptionally, exceptionally lucky
(SnowyTheWereRabbit the Leporid from Hell, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:39, closed)

.
Problem is, if you carry on fighting and they decide to give it to a bailif or something, you'll end up with another £400 quid stuck on the bill.

And you'll still have to prove you didn't get the letters, and the bailifs will be more aggresive chasing the debt than the council are.

Might be worth asking for a bit more time - ask them not to 'escalate' it while you work out what happened.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:44, closed)

You also want to look up something called the "postal rule"
It means you're screwed, basically.

All they have to prove is that they sent the letters, not that you received them.
(dxg, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 17:44, closed)

But how is their computer proof that it was actually posted. All the computer can prove is that the letter was produced, not actually posted. Or am I missing something obvious.
(Freakmandu, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 18:10, closed)

.
Yah, unfortunately. History and statistics.

Non receipt is claimed relentlessly by people who have forgotten/decided not to pay their council tax / parking ticket / a thousand other things. This has been happening pretty much since the postal service began. During this time, the postal service has generally become more reliable. Less than 0.1% of mail is actually lost these days.

So, if the council mail 100,000 people, it's fair to say max 100 of them might not get their letter. That's arguable, maybe a court will accept that.

But the chances of you not getting the second one is at least one in a million (0.1% x 0.1% lost). That kind of stat will not stand up in court, unless you can actually show the address was wrong. Otherwise you have no chance whatsoever of getting away with it.

Like I say, this is a very old and very overused excuse, and councils are well used to hearing it, and dealing with it. That's why they write more than once.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Fri 3 Sep 2010, 8:21, closed)

Except that your maths shows that for every ten mailings, there will be someone who doesn't get either letter. If he can persuade the Judge that he's that one...

(He won't of course).
(johnson, Sat 4 Sep 2010, 11:50, closed)

"Provided they were correctly addressed, chances of one letter going astray are remote. Chances of two of them going astray are virtually zero. "

Unless your post is sorted by Hemel Hempstead sorting office. I swear they just bin 50% of the letters that go through there.
(Freakmandu, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 18:03, closed)

You might
like to ask what the fuckety fuck the court fee is for as you are happy to pay and they have no need to take you to Court. Writing a final demand should not, in itself, incur fees.

Also, though the chances of two letters going astray in the post may be minimal but you could argue that the monkeys at the Council are less reliable.

Proof of postage is not proof of delivery.
(Falco, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:42, closed)

.
I'd bet the council hear 'I didnt get it' 20 times a week.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:48, closed)

Plead poverty and offer to pay in instalments.
Send it by recorded delivery. All reasonable offers MUST be considered. Courts frown upon continued action when a reasonable offer has been made and might just find in your favour.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:52, closed)

THIS

( Scaryduck LIKES EGG, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 17:09, closed)

Very much this.
Also, may I echo lots of others here, and say why the buggering fuckity would you owe them a court fee if they haven't taken you to court?
(MrOli is ugly, but in the morning you will be sober, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 17:25, closed)

Keep calling back until you get someone reasonable
Whenever I've had to deal with anything like this, I just rang them repeatedly (hopefully getting different people each time) until someone gave in and gave me what I wanted
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:58, closed)

Tell them that you sent payment by cheque.
Not your fault they didn't get it. Your computer says you that you sent it. Good enough for them...
(Tighthead, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 16:59, closed)

Send them a backdated cheque
for the amount, minus the fee. Say it must have been delayed in the post.

(Might work, who knows?!)
(Petite chien is going to do science to it, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 17:08, closed)

Citizens Advice Bureau
Will tell you straight... they really are good.

Alternatively, try here forums.moneysavingexpert.com/index.php
( mr.dogshit The world's premier anthropomorphic canine faeces, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 19:46, closed)

Presumably
if you just pay them the amount owed, but minus a ''court fee'', they will be unable to take it to court? And if they did, it's not like you'd refused to pay anything, but rather paid everything- minus spurious charges- when they asked you to.
(Le Misanthrope last procrastinated on, Thu 2 Sep 2010, 20:25, closed)

I would do this:
Phone up and ask for the original invoice number (the one without the charge on it).
Then go to the council payments office and request a copy of that invoice. Then pay that invoice over the counter.
Then send a copy of the receipt in response to the new letter saying, as shown here I have paid the invoice to which they refer.
They then have the choice of chasing you for a charge for a legal/court action thats not happened or dropping it as they've already been paid what they originally wanted.
(golddust QOTW now revolves around being a cunt, Fri 3 Sep 2010, 9:22, closed)

Thanks
Wow, a lot been posted here since I last read the replies. Thanks for all the advice.

I'll try what Tighthead and emvee suggested but I'll end up paying the court fee, I imagine.

I'll update here if I win.
(gobsh, Fri 3 Sep 2010, 10:01, closed)

Stats
Your stats are wrong.

You are assuming that the chance of a letter going missing is the same as any other but you have to consider why things get lost in the post. A big part of it is the human error of the last mile. i.e. Your postie. If he made an error once, there is a greater chance he will make the same error.

My parents had loads of post go missing a couple of years ago and they put it down to Royal Mail crappiness. In the end, it turns out the postie was going through a divorce and was taking ALL the overtime but not delivering anything.

When the Royal Mail and Police caught up with him he had his garage, living rooms, etc filled with mail from nine months previous.

The problem is, if this scenario (or something similar) has happened to you, you wont find out for months when it is too late.

I would write to the council and offer complete payment for the undisputed portion of the debt and then dispute the remainder. They cant pass it on while it is in dispute and offer to meet with them. If they refuse then ask them to take you to court and argue it in front of a judge.

The Intepretations Act of 197? or 198? says IIRC that a letter posted first class is considered delivered within two days, but they have not proved it has been posted. Could the flaw in the system be in the post room.

I say a thing on the news regarding the SORN fines and a guy Freedom of Information Act requested the DVLA on lost post. He won his case.
(jdharding, Sun 5 Sep 2010, 21:59, closed)