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# Fun with vegans
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:20, archived)
# Did... did you make this?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:21, archived)
# He did.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:21, archived)
# OK then ^V^
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:22, archived)
#
o
   )
o
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:23, archived)
# Im tripping baaaaaaalls.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:24, archived)
# Yes.
Very yes.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:21, archived)
# :D:D
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:21, archived)
# :)
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:21, archived)
# Hahahahha
Shouldn't. Might.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:22, archived)
# I'm a vegan :)
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:23, archived)
# and you use a computer?
Do you know how many cow die to make a keyboard?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:25, archived)
# I'm not an extreme vegan
I just don't have milk or meat.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:27, archived)
# Then you are a Vegetarian
Proper vegans don't use any animal products at all
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:31, archived)
# Do they also avoid...
All plants that have been composted with Animal Dung.

All plants that have absorbed CO2 which has previously been breathed out by an animal?

If so, all credit to them.
If not they should get the fuck off their high horses (which surely, they should never have been on, owing to the cruelty involved).
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:33, archived)
# Are you against New Labour?
Yes, well surely you should get out of the country or your a hypocritical bastard.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:35, archived)
# I'm against all forms of Labour.
Name a definition of the word labour, and I'm against it.

Plus, how am I a hypocrite? Please elucidate the logical process which lead you to this conclusion... I'm sure it will be interesting.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:40, archived)
# Please elucidate the logical process
which lead you to think I am a hypocrite because I don't live in a mud hut eating grass.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:42, archived)
# I never
1) called you a hypocrite.
2) mentioned mud huts
3) mentioned grass

I did, however, explain rather succinctly (admittedly in a rather facetious way) 2 ways in which vegans do NOT act, but which, if they stick to the literal interpretation of their convictions they should.

So, again, how do you reach the conclusion that I am a hypocrite? Because I live in a country under a government that I didn't vote for?

(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:49, archived)
# okay then
I wont call my self a vegan because some of the stuff I use has far away links to the meat industry.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:55, archived)
# Does using animal dung or their exhaled CO2 exploit the animals?
Touchy buggers, aren't they.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:05, archived)
# The Vegan Society defines veganism in this way:
'The word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.'

Exhaled CO2 and animal dung are derived from Animals.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:10, archived)
# So presumably then people who use the remnants of a compost toilet for fertilising are cannibals.
See also: the tweed industry which did, and possibly still does, use urine for fixing.

The exploitative bastards
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:12, archived)
# No, because
Canibalism is eating the meat of your own species directly.

Whereas, Vegans are not supposed to use products derived in whole or in part, whether directly OR indirectly.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:17, archived)
# Still human exploitation though according to the logic that manure and fossil fuels is animal exploitation.
"way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose"

The logic is that buying animals products ultimately promotes the intensive farming and mistreatment of animals, so therefore they opt out. Using a product that was created by natural deaths millions of years before the person was even born is hardly in the same spirit of things.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:27, archived)
# Jesus H Corbett
So, do you just go ahead and disect humour, or kill it first?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:59, archived)
# =D
What is this hue more?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 18:01, archived)
# Ok, they have been rather careless with the last sentence.
But I think it is just carelessness, rather than overriding their earlier statement where they say they're only against products exploiting or harming animals.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:14, archived)
# Ulitmately my objection to Veganism runs as follows:
If you accept that humans have rights because of some percieved moral value, it is surely unacceptable not to ascribe the same rights to all animals (since there is no way you can say an animals life is worth less than a humans, without having made some arbitrary decision).

Therefore, "Meat Is Murder".

Fine so far? (I know I've just disproved my point... but only from the point of view of a pre-existing moral framework.)




So, now, let use examine what 'rights' really are:

All 'rights' (human, animal, or otherwise) are an illusion perpetuated by the mass consensus of society.
You may wish to say "God tells us this..." or "science/sociology says this..." and use some sort of logic to justify the rights that you believe in. However, when it comes down to it, rights either DO NOT EXIST at all, or they are formed from the weight of consensus.

In the first case (rights do not exist), veganism is therefore shown to be irrelevant (along with all forms of religion, etc).

In the second case, veganism is wrong (as most of society do not support it).


(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:34, archived)
# Yes but you could apply that line of reasoning to any right which had in the past been non-existant, but now is unthinkably vital.
And to anything people are still very ropey about like actually supporting the homeless, poor, wartorn, and giving people decent free health care.

That's not so much an objection to Veganism, that's an objection to people.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:40, archived)
# Yes... it is a very general, anrachistic, line of reasoning...
Yes... it could be applied to a lot of things...

However Veganism is not "unthinkably vital". General consensus has not reached the point where its momentum forces changes in animal rights legislation.

It hasn't even reached that point for the homeless, poor and sick.

So, no its not a specific objection to Veganism. Its an objection to people wasting their (and others) time with a belief system that is fundamentally at odds with the nature of the world.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:47, archived)
# So how exactly does the momentum change,
given that there's no point or reason in believing anything that goes against the mainstream?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:50, archived)
# I suppose the momentum changes,
Because some people are not capable of going with the flow, and seek to change things.

Things changes.

Slowly.

Meantime, there are a bunch of people enjoying themselves, and not paying too much attention to the moralistic positions of those who aren't.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:10, archived)
# I'm sure they're enjoying themselves too.
Presumably they get more enjoyment from abiding by their moral view of the world than they would from eating a bit of meat now and then, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
I'm guessing there have been some changes you like, such as free health care and equality. But you'd still argue against the people who went against the mainstream to fight to instigate them?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:15, archived)
# Yes I would.
Equality is another horrible illusion. I'm all for advancement based on utilitarian merit, not on some arbitrary government declaration.

Eg. If some total tard gets a job instead of me, because targets for racial equality need to be met, I would consider that to be a disgrace.

Free health care I'm not fussed either way about. Ultimately, its probably a lot more efficient for health to operate in the private sector, but I respect the utilitarian arguments in favour of public health, as the health of a countries economy is directly linked to the health of its populous.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:22, archived)
# I said equality, not positive discrimination.
But the government does sometimes get confused between the two.
I am a little confused as to why you're arguing for the stagnation of mankind.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:26, archived)
# I'm not arguing for it....
...more arguing for its inevitability!
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:30, archived)
# Other belief systems have been at odds with the nature of the world and have been largely accepted now, or at least more so than nothing as they were before.
For a start you have to believe there's such a thing as a 'nature of the world', which while any misanthrope will tell you is a harsh unchangable and self destructive place, is ultimately an incredibly complex system which can alter radically from inane and tiny things.

The major problem is that with the development of the human race the size of groups that people are capable of cooperating with has not increased at the same rate as the global population has, though to abandon or criticise any attempts to years from now overcome or rectify this is ultimately just jaded.

Presuming you're an athiest then you are realistically just wasting your time between your birth and death, whether you hope or feel you have achieved anything is irrelevent and all the time you have spent will be eradicated and meaningless when you die.
So then why not blow the top of your head off instead of wasting time on something which will achieve nothing?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:58, archived)
# Are you saying all Atheists should kill themselves? Dude.
Yes... everyone is wasting their time between birth and death.

I guess it all really depends on whether you wish to waste that time getting uppity on behalf of a bunch of creatures that couldn't and wouldn't thankyou for it (even if they knew about it and were capable of understanding), or whether you instead choose to waste that time by enjoying eating said creatures.

The reason I haven't committed suicide is simple; it doesn't sound like much fun. Ultimately, the passage of time throughout my life might be insignificant and meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe, but whilst I am enduring it, I may aswell enjoy what I can.

I guess I just don't understand the mindset of anyone who would prefer to spend that time doing unenjoyable thankless stuff, only for it to turn out to be just as insignificant and meaningless as the life of someone who had a hell of a lot of fun.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:09, archived)
# Well why not fight for some potentially futile cause? It's ultimately still meaningless as everything else.
And while you may seem enthralled by transient physical enjoyment, that's just your brain pumped full of chemicals I couldn't even name telling the fragile human psychological profile that things are good. Doesn't mean shit all.

If you want to take individual human perception and psychology as a given rather than take the bleak path, then you can't really argue they are living pointlessly because it obviously gives them a great deal of pleasure and fulfillment. In which case it can't be said to be more of a waste of time than enjoying yourself on the path of least resistance because ultimately none of these mean anything when it comes to life and death, but they can both still make the person feel like they have come to terms with and lived whatever concept of life they have. And if personal experience is what matters then their choice of life is no more or less meaningless.

QED

N.B. Suicide isn't meant to be fun, but what good is fun when you're dead anyway, just a way of cutting out the middleman.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:23, archived)
# You make a very good case sir!
And a nice little flourish of latin at the end!

Yes, I do enjoy transient physical enjoyment. But since all things are transient, and all enjoyment is based upon the physical interactions of brain chemicals, what other kind of enjoyment is there?

You're right tho - there is nothing more or less meaningless in veganism than in anything else. I'll concede that.

=D

Who's saying I'm dead anyway? I might be an nihilistic anarchist, but I'm very much alive and enjoying myself!
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:44, archived)
# The human race is not a homogenous mass,
we don't all have the same moral values or attribute rights to things in the same way.
What is the problem with someone calling themselves a vegan and deciding that according to their moral views, harm to animals to should be minimised?
Yes, the weight on consensus forms the framework of 'rights' in a legal sense, but while we have to follow them, we don't have to agree with them and they aren't intrinsically 'right' and other views 'wrong'
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:41, archived)
# WEll thats wrong for a start
.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:43, archived)
# Any particular part?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:44, archived)
# You sure showed me
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:09, archived)
# Theres nothing "wrong" with it, I suppose.
It just isn't right.
And, in addition, its a hell of a lot of hassle.

I follow the path of minimal resistance, and veganism DEFINATELY isn't it.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:16, archived)
# Of course, no set of morals is 'right'.
I do a number of things that aren't the path of least resistance, for example cooking rather than buying ready meals, or holding the door open for someone.
Do you honestly assess every choice according to what would be the quickest and easiest way?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:20, archived)
# Path of least resistance...
Is not merely choosing the quickest and easiest option directly ahead of you.

It is choosing the quickest and easiest SET of options, looking ahead as much as is possible and relevant.

You cook, as you are looking ahead to some point in the future, where having had a more nutritious meal, or more cash in your pocket, will benefit you. Or indeed, the greater level of satisfaction obtained from the meal will relax you, leaving you better rested later on down the path.

You hold the door open, as you will be percieved as polite and attentive, being as you are aware that people who just barge on through end up looking like tosspots.

OMG. I've done sod all work today. I think I'm gonna have to leave this debate (its kind of at a deadlock anyway), but I very much enjoyed it!

Incidentally. Any of the arguments I have put forth are not necessarily my opinion, and are subject to change at any time. For further details, please see my signature.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:30, archived)
# And veganism is explained in exactly the same way, as the followers derive pleasure from it
and perhaps from the idea that their views may become more mainstream.
But yes, this was thoroughly enjoyable.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:32, archived)
# Exactly, the whole "I'm vegan" argument is completely flawed
Can they honestly say that no animals have ever been harmed to produce everything they own and eat? No, so they should just STFU and enjoy eating the tasty meat.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:36, archived)
# So it should be all or nothing then?
There's no half way house at all?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:38, archived)
# For vegans no
They can be vegetarians if they like, but they shouldn't call themselves vegans.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:40, archived)
# So if a vegan is someone who doesn't want to exploit animals,
why can they not use manure to grow their crops? It's a waste product and doesn't harm or affect the animal by taking it.
I think it's a bit strange to say 'you're not a perfect vegan, so you may as well eat meat'
Seems like telling a Christian that since they've broken one commandment, they may as well start murdering people.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:47, archived)
# Okay then, what do you hate and purposly not support?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:38, archived)
# Veganism
So I enjoy plenty of animal based products, not least of which bacon sandwiches and sushi.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:42, archived)
# I could use you same urgument to say fuck off on your high hourse because the bread in the sandwhich isn't meat.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:44, archived)
# Nah
There was plenty of animal byproducts that went into making that bread.

Diesel for the transportation,
Butter in the recipe,
Yeast - which are fungi and more related to animals than plants.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:48, archived)
# Now you're just being silly
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:49, archived)
# Actually, no, he's not.
He's being a realist.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:51, archived)
# I'm sure something you've done today had far away links to something you apposed
it doesnt mean you should care about it
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:57, archived)
# I agree.
But the point is:

that the whole objective of Veganism is obviated by the simple fact that it is impossible to conform to it 100%, and the fact that any attempt to do so would be ludicrous.

Anyway. I don't really strongly oppose anything... to do so is a horrible waste of time that could have been spent enjoying something that I do like. Like steak.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:16, archived)
# The concept of morality and good and evil doesn't work in any objective sense.
Though that's scarcely reason to abandon everything and start murdering babies. Just because you can't realistically apply to something fully, doesn't mean you should abandon the intent and what you hoped to achieve in the first place.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:21, archived)
# Fungi are a separate kingdom, so roughly as different from animals as they are from plants.
Also, I think the argument for animals being 'special' in veganism is to do with the capacity for emotions, which I'm not sure has been demonstrated in mushrooms yet.
Plus, I've never used butter to make bread.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:53, archived)
# As Frankie Boyle says:
Of course there's a vegetarian option... you can fuck off!
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:47, archived)
# Bwahahahahaha!
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:50, archived)
# precisely
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:50, archived)
# omg it's funny because it's irrelevant to the argument
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:58, archived)
# Keyboards arnt made out of leather
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:34, archived)
# Keyboards are made from byproducts of the petrochemical industry
Same argument as petrol there :)
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:43, archived)
# Pardon my ignorance but what does that have to do with animals?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:46, archived)
# Crude Oil is fossilised animals
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:51, archived)
# I thought the main theories were dead plants of some kind of bacterial origin?
And I think it's safe to say that if animals are involved, they didn't suffer anything extra from having their bodies ultimately used as fuel
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:55, archived)
# Rather a lot of animal product goes in the all the bits and got to make the bits.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:51, archived)
# Did you miss the point of the original post?
All petrochemicals come from dead animals.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:51, archived)
# well.. yeah
but I didn't think it was a serious argument
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:01, archived)
# Its about as serious...
...as any discussion of veganism.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:19, archived)
# no it isnt
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:43, archived)
# yes it is
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:49, archived)
# yes it is
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:21, archived)
# no it isn't.. er... so there!
How childish do you want me?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:33, archived)
# more
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 18:39, archived)
# FUCK
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:47, archived)
# who?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:49, archived)
# ummm
well they use the fats to make oleochemical products e.g detergetns, and bioplastics altho i think thats bottles not keyboards.


edit..oh im wrong. they do make phones from bioplastics so keyboards maybe too. Oh and steel. yes steel. And make up.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:55, archived)
# Are you serious?
You are unaware of how oil is created?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:56, archived)
# STRAIGHT EDGE, MAN!
*tries to high five but doesn't have the strenght to raise arm*
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:34, archived)
# Haha
I pictured the tofu eating lion from futurama then
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:44, archived)
# hahahahhaha, I so want to do this :D
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:24, archived)
# I'd love to find out how many vegans were breastfed.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:25, archived)
# 7 of them.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:26, archived)
# their names, please?
c'mon, hurry it up!
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:29, archived)
# SALLY, MICHAEL, MICK, MIKE, SALLY, MICHELLE, SALLY.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:30, archived)
# Thanks.
*finds them, and administers a damn good kicking*

Get some Veal and Foie Gras inside you, you pasty fucks!
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:32, archived)
# Eeeeuurrggghh.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:33, archived)
# Each to his/her/it's own
The above things are gert lush, anyway.

Nom nom nom.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:37, archived)
# I'm a vegglytaryman.
I don't eat marshmallows.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:40, archived)
# Meat!
It's the only way forward!
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:43, archived)
# Fuck no.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:07, archived)
# All the more for me, then
nom nom nom nom
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:20, archived)
# Hahaha, out fo the few vegitarians that I have known, they all ate meat once in a while "because it didn't count" for some reason or other
All a bit pointless in that case if you ask me
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:28, archived)
# I was veggie for over a year.
My first bacon sandwich made me cry with happiness. It was kind of worth it for that alone.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:31, archived)
# for this i love you.
*clicks*
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:26, archived)
# I'm a vegan.
But I consider animals to be essentially concentrated plant matter, so make sure I eat plenty of them.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:26, archived)
# Exactly.
Cow eats grass. Cow becomes pregnant (congratulations Mrs Cow). Grass is turned, via magics and SCIENCE into baby cow. Baby cow born (congratulations again, Mrs Cow). Baby cow = 100% grass.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:27, archived)
# It's the ciiiiiircle of life
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:29, archived)
# I've still not seen that bloody film.
I HAVE played the mega drive game a billion times though.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:32, archived)
# You're not missing much
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:33, archived)
# I didn't think so.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:34, archived)
# nice lines and humour and such :)
woo :)
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:29, archived)
# pffft!
Is there something like an anti-vegan?
If not, I'd like to compete for the job.
*fires up bbq*
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:32, archived)
# For some reason
you made me think of the Storm poem on /links a few days ago. Those that missed it, it is worth a listen.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:34, archived)
# I don't like meat, but I eat it out of principle

because animals are cunts
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:45, archived)
# *LOL*
Brilliant.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:48, archived)
# :D
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 15:37, archived)
# Wow
This is by far the most commented upon thing I've ever posted.
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:44, archived)
# ^this
hard
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 16:53, archived)
# You mean petrol, surely?
(, Tue 7 Apr 2009, 17:52, archived)