The conversation here has ended up focused on attractiveness
... but is focusing on the wrong area, IMO.
The fallacies here are that many respondents to Cumquat are taking at face value the idea that a trans woman is literally a “woman’s soul” in a male body, who therefore has broadly similar feelings about being perceived by others as any other woman.
This is totally incorrect, because whatever nonsense you actually believe about being trans, no human being has the ability to know enough about the internal experiences of another group of humans to be able to say “I belong in that category, even though based on my sex I am not in that group”
So any male who transitions is *by definition* attempting to project an external version of themself that reflects not “what it is to be a woman” but “I am demonstrating that I belong in the opposite sex category”
There are a number of reasons for this, from actual gender dysphoria/intense discomfort with their sexed body, right up to the thing that apparently can’t be mentioned anymore of cross dressing men with fetishes who have had the green light from organisations that have lost the plot to play it out in public.
I think Cumquat is actually valid in talking about the appearance; not because of ugliness but because while men get to see an obvious male in a dress and give themselves progressive points for thinking “I see her as a woman because I’m good”, women see an obvious male and get called bigots and TERFs if they decide they want some spaces reserved based on sex.
And once that slips, you have the crazy Laurel Hubbard situation where, even on B3ta, men were falling over themselves to not understand that male people are physiologically different from women and that sexism is based on sex...
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:09, Reply)
'if they decide they want some spaces reserved based on sex.'
This is going a little off topic, perhaps. But if we're to exclude trans-women from female Toilets/Changing Areas etc, then shouldn't we also be excluding homosexual women? Where does the line get drawn? Should homosexual men be permitted to change in female changing rooms? Perhaps that would make certain heterosexual men more comfortable?
Do we allow trans-women into women's changing areas once gender reassignment surgery is complete? Or does Cumquat have to first decide if they appear sufficiently feminine?
The question is somewhat rhetorical because it's a hugely complicated issue, and I don't suspect we're going to find a solution for it on here. Although, I feel the answer might lie in just taking a overall more liberal approach to these kinds of situations. Mixed changing rooms with discrete shower cubicles, for example.
As for shared toilets, I couldn't really give a fuck. I don't particularly want to hear anybody else shitting. That person's biological construction has absolutely no relevance to me in that regard.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:01, Reply)
Homosexual women are female
So they belong in female spaces.
Male people are not female. So female people have the right to object to male people in female spaces.
And by “spaces” I refer to not just physical spaces, but all the spaces people can occupy.
Would an “all women shortlist” consisting of only trans women serve any purpose?
Does a male person belong in the female category in the olympics?
Does my grandmother have the right to have intimate care delivered by a nurse who is the same sex as she is?
These are only hugely complicated issues if you find the idea of saying “no” to unreasonable demands from male people to be complicated
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:13, Reply)