My favourite psychiatrist tackles a controversial subject...
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sat 7 Aug 2021, 22:39,
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If there was a scale from ugly to beautiful,
trannies should bear in mind that if they're just an average looking bloke, they're going to right to bottom of the ugly scale as a woman. Like, whatever fantasies they have in their heads about what it's going to be like, they're not just transitioning to a woman, they're transitioning to a really ugly woman, someone who's going to inspire in passersby a "Christ, what the fuck is that?" double-take reaction before the realisation that they're a trannie dawns on them. I hope psychiatrists explain that's what's in store for them.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 1:14,
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Maybe they're not doing it for you
I dunno, I thought most of us stopped feeling the need to assign a grade to every woman we saw when we were in our early 20s.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 1:23, Reply)
who said anything about assigning a grade to every woman we saw? talk about a strawman
But you do presumably notice comparatively beautiful or comparatively ugly women, unless you've totally lost interest, and the majority of tranny woman are at the bottom and inspire that reaction, not just in me, but in most passers-by. They're of an ugliness that my kids tug my shirt and I have to explain to them it's rude to stare at people. I mean, there's people that are attracted to trannies, but there's people who go for morbidly obese women too. but the vast majority of people have a fairly conformist range of what they consider attractive.
However you'd or they'd wish things to be, that's the reality. Maybe some it doesn't bother, maybe some like the reaction they never got as blokes. Good luck to 'em, it's quite a brave thing to do. But they have to deal with it, nevertheless, and should know that it's not going to be some belle of the ball fantasy. Somehow I doubt that this aspect is explained to them amongst the modern transitioning support that they get
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 1:39,
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I suspect adults contemplating transition have thought about this.
It's much deeper than being conventionally attractive.
There are pretty strict protocols around transitioning where surgery or hormonal treatments are involved (UK). This is done IIRC, to weed out people with other conditions, experimenting teenagers etc.
Edit: Watch 'The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert'
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 2:34,
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never underestimate the ability of people to entertain completely unrealistic notions in their head, especially about themselves
and given modern norms, I bet at no stage any of the allied health professionals involved ever mention the word ugly. anyway, it's just an observation. When I see a tranny walk down the high street I often wonder if getting continuously stared at aghast like a circus freak was quite what they had in mind when they felt like expressing their trapped gender identity or however they describe it. It's certainly not the experience that most women whom they're trying to emulate get. The ones who you can instantly identify as such have it a bit easier, it's the ones where there's that initial doubt that get those unmoderated reactions.
And priscilla, which I've seen, was about drag queens doing a touring show. I hope you're not suggesting people make the transition just so they can be Ru Paul. I didn't think it was that realistic anyway. People in shitty mining towns, where I've spent a fair bit of time, are more accepting of wierdos and outcasts than you might think, as a lot of them are that themselves. It's the endless suburbs of australia where most people live where people are the most conformist and judgemental
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 4:49,
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never underestimate the ability of people to entertain completely unrealistic notions in their head, especially about themselves
like the way you've written multiple paragraphs of your opinion of what other people's intenal thought processes are and how you'll judge them for just wanting to be happy?
give it a rest you tedious cunt
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 10:28, Reply)
i'm afraid you're too thick to follow my argument, and have misinterpreted my position
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 13:06,
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Priscilla highlights differences in why people do drag.
One of the characters is transgender, the others are in drag. For the guys this is 'showbiz' for her it is more serious.
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 22:48,
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it's been a long time since I watched it, but I remember it being a good flick, good performances
And I take the point you were making
I think it was terence stamps character who was the transgender, who he played with a fair bit of pathos
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 23:58,
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maybe I notice some women briefly
Everyone else I don't give a second thought in the same way I don't really think about a cis man or an 80 year old woman. Whatever their appearance, it's not for my benefit. I don't sit on the tube gawping at people, thinking about how a person I'm never going to interact with doesn't meet my arbitrary attractiveness criteria.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 10:34, Reply)
well, good for you. You're a fine human being and I won't hear anyone say differently
But if you happen to see a tranny on the tube or out and about, don't look at them, look at how the strangers around them are reacting to them. the stares, the glance that break on eye contact. the whispers. the unconcealed reactions of kids. Then think about what it must be like experiencing this constantly.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 13:33,
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I'd have thought most people who transition were mostly fantasising about finally feeling comfortable in their own skin.
To say nothing of the fact that (AFAIK) you have to have lived as your 'correct' gender for quite a while before they will even consider reassignment surgery.
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jonbob loves you, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 2:34,
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reassignment surgery doesn't fix ugliness, and they're still in their own skin regardless
besides, I think you're both being quite presumptuous by assuming being desirable to men plays no part in their gender identity, given how fundamental sex and desire is to most humans.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 5:04,
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Sexual/physical attraction is *completely* subjective.
If you find transgender females with masculine bone structure unattractive, then that's your problem. But who are you to say what is 'ugly beyond your own personal tastes?
The standards that define 'beauty' vary wildy between cultures. And very wildly again based upon individual standards.
Are you comparing these 'ugly transgender individuals to the stereotypical British ideal of a 'beautiful' female (slim, slight features, long legs, big tits, blonde hair)? Is that even the stereotypical British ideal any more?
I see plenty of Women/Girls on Social Media that are regarded by a huge number of people as 'hot' or 'sexy' or 'fit'. Most of them look fucking horrendous as far as I'm concerned, but that's just my opinion, man.
I'm not into the stereotypical 'sexy lady' aesthetic at all. I'd much prefer a woman with oil and dirt on her face to half an inch of concealer.
There's an individual that comes into my place of work fairly regularly. I don't know what pronoun they prefer, as I'm not the greatest conversationalist, but they were clearly born into a male body. Whether this person enjoys wearing makeup and typically feminine clothing, or whether they identify as female is none of my fucking business anyway, really. Neither is it up to me to label them as 'ugly. They're not my cup of tea, but neither are a vast majority of the population - doesn't mean they're ugly.
Perhaps your problem with these particular individuals is that they aren't 'fishy enough for you. But again, I don't really see why it's any of your concern at all. Frankly your whole 'I HOPE THEY REALISE THEY'LL NEVER BE PRETTY' outburst sounds somewhat resentful. Have you had a bad experience with a transgender individual in the past? Are you harbouring uncomfortable feelings about your own sexual orientation? There are loads of places on the Web where you can talk to people about these feelings. B3ta probably isn't the one I'd recommend though.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 8:40, Reply)
bullshit attraction is completely subjective, you've let all that nonsense go to your head
quite the contrary, there's actually high levels of agreement on what is attractive and what's ugly, and if you look a bit deeper it's because we're all applying common criteria in our judgement. Most people think helena Christiansen is attractive, and it's actually because we're all noting fine bone structure, high cheekbones, eye spacing and the like. there's some cultural influence to how it developed as in other things, but that counts to unless the tranny is planning on moving, they have to deal with the culture you're in. What's more we're even more attuned to sexual dimorphism, basically we're good at telling who is male and who is female, for obvious evolutionary advantage and not wasting paying for dinner. So people are very good at telling when someone is the opposite sex faking being male or female. A rare few can pass, but my comment was about average plain looking men wanting to be female, and part of the reason for those constant stares and children pointing is not just that they make ugly women but they set off all sorts of alarm bells as we subconsciously note bone development, chin size, adams apple and the other things we're good at picking up on to tell the sex of someone. We know there's something wrong, and we stare until it dawns on us that they're a tranny. They might feel like a women and identify as such, but sadly most aren't very good at passing as one.
As to your amateur psychoanalysis of me, I consider it a poor ad hominen attack compensating for the fact you know I'm right but prefer not to accept the reality because it interferes with your virtue signalling
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:11,
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Helena Christiansen is attractive?
Well you bollocksed that one right up
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Fadgebadger Sweaty sumo wanks for everyone!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:18,
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it's good that you're wanking off to widdecombe, attraction being "completely" subjective and all
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:31,
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says the bloke who's basically foregone any attempts at argument and is just firing off one insult after another
It wasn't a huge point I was making, it was just an observation, that rather than have this experience of being treated like woman when they dress as one, instead they get constant gawping when they go out in public, children pointing, people nudging each other and whispering on trains. I've seen it a lot, . So they're not actually getting treated like women, because most women, apart from freakishly ugly ones, don't get this. And whether, along with all the affirmation and support they get, whether this consequence is adequately explained to them. It's a valid observation, and an accurate one in many cases. I put things crudely, as is my way, and it seems to have upset you which wasn't my intention. But I don't think any of this "every butterfly is beautiful and special and all beauty is subjective" reflects the reality of this experience, it's wishful thinking and virtue signalling
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:01,
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What *is* 'being treated like a woman?
Having a coat thrown down by a gentleman so you don't muddy your shoes in a puddle? A doth of the hat? A chair pulled out for you at dinner?
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:12, Reply)
is your plan to wear me down with stupidity?
take a class if you haven't learnt how gender mediates social interaction by now. Or is that another thing you don't believe in along with attractiveness?
"Sex category (ie.. how gender, cultural category of male or female) appears
as a multi-level system of difference and to be one of a very few social identities that are so culturally important that they must be evoked to render any concrete other sufficiently meaningful to be interacted with.
In fact, the evidence shows that we automatically sex categorize any specific person that we must interact with" (Ridgeway 1996, Gender and Social Interaction)
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:42,
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I'm talking about her younger days, of course
there was a reason they put her on magazine covers to flog stuff
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:26,
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It's almost as if you're saying that transgender women are wasting their time if they can't meet the standards set by fashion magazines.
And should just continue to live as men, instead.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:31, Reply)
it's almost as if you're saying that
if I want to make an argument, I'll say it without you strawmanning
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:32,
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you mean, when someone take the arguments of another and exaggerates and embellishes it to well beyond what that argument was, ie, creating a strawman to then argue against
such as claiming that by mentioning magazines Im making an argument that transgendered people should meet magazine standard beauty, instead of the context I was using it in which was about evidence of conformity of opinion around helena christianses attractiveness. i.e, replacing the proposition I made with one he made. I'm afraid that's classic strawmanning he's engaged in, and it's you that need to be educated about the terms and their correct usage
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:50,
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So, what was it? Did an ex-partner realise they were trans? A parent?
There's a bloody great series on Amazon Prime about that.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:24, Reply)
you sound like you've quite the interest and rich fantasy life regarding them
is this part of your fan fiction?
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:28,
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ahh, so you're defending daddy
well, that explains why you're getting your knickers in a twist, if you'll excuse the metaphor
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:34,
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now that you've tried your 101 internet trolling gambit
I'd be curious, if you feel like being honest, if him getting gawped at by strangers on the high street was one aspect that was hard to deal with, and it's an aspect which is quite unlike what biological females tend to experience. Take your time, I'm off to do some shopping
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:43,
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Biological females don't get gawped at in the street?
Maybe he didn't give a fuck. Should people with physical deformities hide themselves away from the public eye incase their appearance upsets people, too? What exactly is the point you're trying to make?
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:52, Reply)
no, again this wasn't an argument I made. you seem very keen to put words into my mouth
my point was this is a common experience for trannies in public, and whether people who assist in them in transitioning, like the psychiatrist in the video, adequately inform them of this quite harsh reality. The fact that people like yourself cant even acknowledge it without resorting to hysterical contrivances like your last reply makes me think that this might be something that in trying to create a supportive atmosphere and allow the person to fulfil whatever gender identity they want to express, this less savoury aspect might be omitted. I also wonder if all the out drag queen stuff might be a way of dealing something they would have copped anyway, but at least it's on their terms. You'd have to do some sort of poll of trannies to find out. but it's a valid observation, and whether you have problems dealing with it is your business
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:04,
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This is just an example of
The way people treat trans people like babies, not like women.
A trans woman being gawped at in the street is experiencing something very different ti what a woman experiences when she is gawped at on the street. The latter is experiencing men who can’t or choose not to control themselves when they see someone they find attractive, the former is experiencing people staring because they’re seeing a person who looks a bit “off” to them and so is doing a double take or clocking them.
That’s the reality of it.
I think there’s a germ of a point there though, which is that it seems likely - especially based on the outfits I’ve seen some in when I’ve seen trans people out and about - that there’s a conscious choice to provoke a WTF? reaction, because the person can experience the stares that they didn’t get when dressed in masculine/neutral clothing, and process the experience as affirmation on]f being a woman.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:20, Reply)
like I said, it was more of an observation , and I remember wondering at the time watching other peoples reaction if this was what they imagined it was going to be like before they transitioned
perhaps because of my crudeness Swagatha has me pegged as some tranny hater, but I reckon I've had more in my social circle than many, though no relatives I know about. If someone's friendly to me then I reciprocate, though I do have an aversion to dull people who trannies rarely are. I lived in brazil where travestis (their term for anything from drag to transgender) were more common and treated a little differently, though it wasn't without transphobia. And one of the most common reasons for gay blokes becoming TGs was that they could make more money as prostitutes, somehow the macho latin culture saw picking up trannies as more acceptable than gayzinhos. i lived near where avenida republica became indianapolis which was tranny prostitute central of the whole continent of an evening. My view on these thing is you probably should try and express your desires as long as it doesn't involve children or animals. but be prepared for the consequences of that expression, which can be copping constant gawping, or worse, kids and a mortgage
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:54,
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It's the uncanny valley effect
something is not quite right with that person, hardwired response
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 19:39, Reply)
Good delivery, but I tend to disagree on one point:
When it comes to non-binaryness I think there may be some sort of underlying disorder in most cases. It's not a gender thing so much as a kind of pathological need for attention, or the desire to feel special. Perhaps my view is coloured by the likes of Sam Smith being insufferable bell ends crying "look at me, look at me!". The same applies to people who call themselves "queer"; it seems to me that they just want to label themselves as something out of the ordinary without being able to explain exactly what it means.
I wonder if we made an effort to try and think of fewer activities or behaviours as intrinsically male or female the whole non-binary thing would all but disappear.
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jonbob loves you, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 2:28,
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I've always seen sexuality/gender as being on sliding scales, not binary.
I'm fairly suspect of people who crave attention too.
I guess some people who are near the middle of the range might struggle to define where they are.
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 2:52,
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You're saying there aren't say, hetero men who are happy to take 'women's' roles?
Or women who are 'macho' or aggressively ambitious.
Sensitive men who nurture v powerful women who lead etc. etc.
In my eyes, part of the problem is the need to divide complex behaviours into easy binaries.
Why not stop worrying about other peoples trouser parts or indeed where they put them.
I'm too pissed for this.
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 4:59,
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this was more my point, FCM
most feminine behaviour and roles you don't have to dress up or have surgery, you can just do it. In the modern world nobody forces you to chop wood or sew buttons. It's only really if you want to get woman reaction in others that you need to dress-up, but as per my point above about most blokes making startlingly ugly woman, you won't get that experience anyway, at least by the public.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 5:18,
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What if dressing up makes them feel pretty?
I dress the way I dress because I like how it makes me look. I really couldn't give a toss what anybody else thinks. Do you?
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 8:43, Reply)
people that don't care anything for what others think of them are sociopaths,
but I find most people who claim it are liars who are in reality acutely aware and concerned about how they're perceived and their status, and claiming it is just another bit of self-aggrandising.
but as to transgender, i thought it went a bit deeper than simply delight at cross-dressing and they were after the (debatable) experience of being treated as a woman. hence all the insistence on pronouns and what not. maybe I'm wrong
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 14:31,
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'people that don't care anything for what others think of them are sociopaths'
No, they're not.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 17:23, Reply)
*clears throat*
"a person with sociopathy (a non-clinical term now commonly called antisocial personality disorder) disregards the wishes, rights, and feelings of others"
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 23:18,
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No, sociopathy is an inability to empathise.
They have fewer 'mirror' neurons which activate when neurotypical people view others.
Whether someone cares about what others think is different, asocial or perhaps the very introverted people might pay little attention.
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 21:32,
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it's not a clinical term, so it's definition is rubbery
but I'll concede totally disregarding the opinion of others is not the only criteria that makes someone a sociopath, lack of empathy, manipulation, can be part of it too.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 1:27,
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The conversation here has ended up focused on attractiveness
... but is focusing on the wrong area, IMO.
The fallacies here are that many respondents to Cumquat are taking at face value the idea that a trans woman is literally a “woman’s soul” in a male body, who therefore has broadly similar feelings about being perceived by others as any other woman.
This is totally incorrect, because whatever nonsense you actually believe about being trans, no human being has the ability to know enough about the internal experiences of another group of humans to be able to say “I belong in that category, even though based on my sex I am not in that group”
So any male who transitions is *by definition* attempting to project an external version of themself that reflects not “what it is to be a woman” but “I am demonstrating that I belong in the opposite sex category”
There are a number of reasons for this, from actual gender dysphoria/intense discomfort with their sexed body, right up to the thing that apparently can’t be mentioned anymore of cross dressing men with fetishes who have had the green light from organisations that have lost the plot to play it out in public.
I think Cumquat is actually valid in talking about the appearance; not because of ugliness but because while men get to see an obvious male in a dress and give themselves progressive points for thinking “I see her as a woman because I’m good”, women see an obvious male and get called bigots and TERFs if they decide they want some spaces reserved based on sex.
And once that slips, you have the crazy Laurel Hubbard situation where, even on B3ta, men were falling over themselves to not understand that male people are physiologically different from women and that sexism is based on sex...
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:09, Reply)
'if they decide they want some spaces reserved based on sex.'
This is going a little off topic, perhaps. But if we're to exclude trans-women from female Toilets/Changing Areas etc, then shouldn't we also be excluding homosexual women? Where does the line get drawn? Should homosexual men be permitted to change in female changing rooms? Perhaps that would make certain heterosexual men more comfortable?
Do we allow trans-women into women's changing areas once gender reassignment surgery is complete? Or does Cumquat have to first decide if they appear sufficiently feminine?
The question is somewhat rhetorical because it's a hugely complicated issue, and I don't suspect we're going to find a solution for it on here. Although, I feel the answer might lie in just taking a overall more liberal approach to these kinds of situations. Mixed changing rooms with discrete shower cubicles, for example.
As for shared toilets, I couldn't really give a fuck. I don't particularly want to hear anybody else shitting. That person's biological construction has absolutely no relevance to me in that regard.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:01, Reply)
Homosexual women are female
So they belong in female spaces.
Male people are not female. So female people have the right to object to male people in female spaces.
And by “spaces” I refer to not just physical spaces, but all the spaces people can occupy.
Would an “all women shortlist” consisting of only trans women serve any purpose?
Does a male person belong in the female category in the olympics?
Does my grandmother have the right to have intimate care delivered by a nurse who is the same sex as she is?
These are only hugely complicated issues if you find the idea of saying “no” to unreasonable demands from male people to be complicated
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:13, Reply)
No, I'm not saying that. Not at all.
What I'm saying is that men who might want to stay at home with the children and/or wear make-up or women who might prefer rugby and/or steelworks are still just men and women respectively.
I'm trying to say that the idea of a gender-specific activity is beginning to fall out of favour (because there's nothing wrong with a stay-at-home-husband or a lady bricklayer) and this makes me think that people who 'come out' as non-binary are simply seeking attention.
I'm too pissed for this too, but I still think we're actually on the same page.
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jonbob loves you, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:08,
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for me, men lost our unique gender role when we stopped being able to split our enemies heads open with an axe for fun and profit
all the rest is just quibbling about minutiae
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 14:43,
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Those roles of which you speak
Are not “women’s roles”; they’re roles expected of women. So a predisposition to carrying out a role - other than reproductive - associated with the opposite sex only really shows that sex stereotypes are shit, not that the person wanting that role is “feminine” or maybe not even a man
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:29, Reply)
Unless one believes in a “soul”
then there’s a very basic issue with the fundamental claims about what it is to be trans, and which does feed into Cunquat’s response.
All that *any* person can experience is what it is to be themself. Intense discomfort with one’s own body does *not* = accurately identifying which group you *do* belong in. Every trans woman has become a trans woman by having - and this shouldn’t be controversial - a *male* person’s assumption of what it is to be a woman, and an assertion that they are also one. How far you go along with the claims that trans activists make - whether you buy into meaningless mantras like “trans women are women” depends ultimately on the extent to which you think male people’s ideas of what it is to be a woman should be taken literally
Based on the fact - and it is fact - that a trans woman is, by definition, living a male person’s idea of what it is to be a woman, it’s not unreasonable to notice that it’s often male people who seem to be performing the most ludicrous caricatures of femininity who don’t “pass” at all.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:20, Reply)
I think cumquat is actually getting at something that is a very important, but completely overlooked, point.
The whole debate is centred entirely on the transitioner. How they feel, who they think they are, etc. Ultimately though, they'll never get what they want unless others genuinely perceive them how they wish to be perceived. It's all very well chanting the double think slogan 'trans women are women' but if they are perceived as trans, then that's how they'll be perceived. Sure, we can play along, indeed we arguably ought to and use pronouns accordingly etc, but if they are still perceived as trans, that's all they'll ever be.
If a bald man has a comb over he has one because he wants to be perceived as having a full head of hair. He doesn't though. He's bald, and everyone knows it. He can get a wig if he likes. If he gets a good one he may well fool everyone. But it doesn't change the fact that he's bald. You may think this is a superficial analogy but it's not. Looks and appearance and how they are perceived, are by definition, superficial.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:32,
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I think you’re right
It comes down to that identity is a two way street, not an assertion. I can’t see trans women as women. Not because I hate trans people, but because I’ve not heard a non-sexist definition of “woman” that includes male people. So if someone’s identity and expectation is “I am a trans woman. I expect to not be treated disrespectfully because of that”, then I can go with that - I’m not being told to alter my perceptions or deny reality. But if someone says “I’m a trans woman, and as trans women are women, I expect you to consider me to be a woman in the same way that you consider all women to be women, and that includes being entitled to access all spaces and services intended for female people”, then I’ll maintain that someone’s assertions about their identity dont actually mean I have to believe them or affirm them, and sometimes I might have to say “no”
The combover analogy is interesting, because even though it sounds facetious, in your example, the balding man is (in relative terms) “oppressed”, while those with a full head of hair are the privileged.
This is a reversal of the dynamic between trans women and women; in which male people claim to be the most oppressed female people.
Edit: this is partly why the issue is so divided. Well meaning “allies” love to show how great they are by telling trans women how pretty they look. They’re treated like babies, not women. And organisations are telling people that falling short of fawning indulgence is hatred. And that makes for a world that feels unsafe.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:39, Reply)
When you add to the mix all the new genders things get even more counter intuitive.
If someone identifies as ‘intersex’ or ‘bigender’ that’s all good and well. But they cannot expect people to know or deduce things like that, and so have no right to be upset when they don’t. They can tell people, and out of courtesy people should use their chosen pronouns, but that’s all it is, a courtesy. The assertion that it’s a fact is inane and incorrect. If there is such a thing as society, we ought to try and belong to it in some way, not belligerently keep screeching ‘I am different! Respect me! Failure to do so is evil!’
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 14:58,
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Pronouns. I've never understood the relevance.
Bear with me here...
Someone knocks on the door, I answer it and the wife might ask "what do they want?" There is therefore an established pronoun for use when we don't know the gender of the person in question.
When you are actually speaking to someone though, you don't address them with gendered pronouns, we say e.g. what do you want?
You only need gendered pronouns when talking ABOUT someone, not in their presence, so all the fuss must be people taking offence on behalf of someone else, so how can someone actually be 'misgendered'?
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da5id <YOUR SIG HERE>, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 14:40,
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Sir is not a pronoun, it’s a common noun, but in terms of linguistic and communicative function it serves much the the same purpose as a pronon.
“Put your knickers back on sir, or you’ll get skid marks on your dress.”
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:04,
Reply)
The significance of pronouns
Is control. It puts you on the back foot and makes you feel slightly disorientated you use language at odds with your perceptions.
Which of these sounds more reasonable?
1: She should not compete in the female category in the Olympics
2: He should not compete in the female category in the Olympics
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:15, Reply)
I've made a similar point, but not as nicely put
I don't mind calling trannies women and using the right pronoun, but it's because it's polite and no skin off my nose to be accommodating. Id call someone napoleon if really meant a lot to them. But it doesn't alter how I perceive them, which is usually as a man who had grown up a man and had all these male experiences, and now wants to emulate what there own interpretation of what they think a women is. Now, this also doesn't bother me or make me think they're a bad person (though they could also be an arsehole). their experiences tend to make engaging dinner conversation, and their version of a women is often nicer than many women I've met, as they're trying harder. I have noticed in those I've interacted with that you don't get many trannies that try to emulate hard bossy margaret thatcher women types, perhaps if you want to be a sheila what's the point in being a mannnish one? but I know more brazilian trannies than English ones, and the big drag queens I used to see around st kilda in melbourne when I was at uni could drink me under the table. But there something theatre about the whole thing, a sort of shared conceit, though there are in other aspects of life, I suppose
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:10,
Reply)
Here’s a question
If “non binary” isn’t about stereotypes, why doesn’t the fact that I’ve spent 6 of the last ten years working as a carer in a 95% female workforce mean that I am not “cis” - why would my identity be beyond question if I demonstrated it with hair dye but not when it’s about having actual direct experienced for extended periods of time of a context/point of view that is usually experienced by women?
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:26, Reply)
I'm having trouble parsing this sentence, what with a triple negative and all. could you simplify it a bit
at least until I have my first coffee
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 23:47,
Reply)
And that’s the issue
Trans activism takes the courtesy, and turns it into a fundamental assumption. Granting that courtesy earns one a short term boost in being seen as kind, but once you’re in, you’re expected to be all the way in. Once you’re using those pronouns, if you articulate an argument that in some circumstances sex matters, you’ll be asked “but how do you square that with your apparently inclusive stance? Don’t you believe trans women are women?”
Or if you refer to a trans rapist as “he”, on the basis that a rapist isn’t doing much to create the impression that he’s a woman, you’ll be told that you’re gatekeeping womanhood, and that if recognising trans women as women is dependent on behaviour, you never believed it. And are therefore a bigot.
That’s why I’ve decided to be a conscientious objector to preferred pronouns, and make exceptions only where I consider it appropriate (while understanding that if that is a problem for some, we’re unlikely to get on)
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:38, Reply)
Lots of assumptions and criticism of opinions you imagine imaginary people will have.
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brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 16:04,
Reply)
this is fair point, people are always getting worked up about things that don't really affect them
I think there's some tricky questions around sport, but it doesn't affect me, not being a female olympic hopeful. and there's a live US issue around trannies in womens prisons. basically a couple of trannies were put in a womans prison and then started raping the inmates, who then took the prison service all the way to the supreme court. the judge said it was difficult balancing the rights of trannies to be treated as women, with the rights of female prisoners to safety, but recently ruled on the trannies side. Now I disagree, but again this doesn't affect me, and even if I was to campaign for prison reform, there's a lot bigger fish to fry than that one, especially in the states
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 23:38,
Reply)
And have you met anyone in the real world to
conscientiously object to yet?
(
monkeon schmonkeon, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 19:28,
Reply)
Yes
Absolutely.
Not that it’s not a sensitive thing to navigate, but I do maintain that I won’t demonstrate belief to a thing I don’t believe in
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 22:00, Reply)
What do you do when
someone you know is getting married and you don't believe it will last?
Don't go to the wedding or stand up and object?
(
monkeon schmonkeon, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 22:36,
Reply)
People getting married
Doesn’t ask anything of me.
People telling me what I have to perceive them as, does.
(, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 7:57, Reply)
It is asking you to spend lots of money
on a boring day out. It is pretending to be happy for them, when you think it is a mistake. If you are an atheist and they marry in a church, it is performing in a religious ceremony.
It is physically demonstrating a belief you don't believe in.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 9:44,
Reply)
If you are an atheist and they marry in a church, it is performing in a religious ceremony
You seem to be taking someone else's special day and saying "but what about meeeeee?".
If they're friends then go along and play the part. Nobody is asking you to believe in any of this shit. Half the people there don't. And if you can't find a way of enjoying yourself at the reception then just don't go. It costs them a fuckload to cater to you, so don't go and act the miserable teenager.
(
evil_andy Stick stick stick stick sticky sticky stick stick, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 20:41,
Reply)
I do go along with it. As you say, it's only polite.
Using preferred pronouns is also polite.
I was just curious where someone who "won’t demonstrate belief to a thing I don’t believe in" stands on the issue.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 21:21,
Reply)
Both things are considered “polite”to do
However attending a wedding is not akin to using preferred pronouns, as preferred pronouns can often lead to a situation where they make useful language difficult or impossible - and in fact, that’s the point.
Perhaps people shouldn’t invest so much meaning in the perceptions of others?
(, Tue 10 Aug 2021, 7:01, Reply)
Drag is another thing.
I’m not drag phobic. On occasion I find drag acts entertaining and engaging. If that’s what people want to do, they should do it. However I am acutely uncomfortable with the modern trend to celebrate drag to the point of reverence. In essence drag takes aspects of the stereotype of femininity, such as eye-catching frocks and shoes, elaborate barnets and make up, and ramps them up to the extreme. The worst kinds of female behaviour, the catty bitchiness, the fickle whimsicality, are held up as the template. It’s at best a satirical parody (that is not a tautology) of femininity, at worst it’s a hateful and grotesque caricature. It seems to me just another way for men to be misogynistic, yet they’re lauded for it. That really annoys me, because I like women.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 16:18,
Reply)
I've always wanted to see a
drag king do an act based on the negative male stereotype of a Top Gear banter wanker.
(
monkeon schmonkeon, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 16:55,
Reply)