It's not a civilian casualty rate in reply
Most of the dead have been Hamas terrorists. These people place themselves next to high density areas. They even proudly admit to their use of human shields (as was the case a few years ago when Israel regularly rings up well in advance (about 24 hours I believe) to tell they're going to destroy a home of a terrorist); in one case Hamas got a group of civilians to stand on the roof of the building so Israeli jets wouldn't blow it up. Of course, their status as civilians is questionable, but they were hardly combattants at the time. Also, they got a horde of women in Burkas, another time, to wait outside a building then dressed the wanted man in a burka and smuggled him out; now you may think that's a fair ploy, but a ruse de guerre does not feature civilians.
I doubt how many of these civilian deaths are really civilian and not just Hamas fighters, with no uniforms, stripped of their weapons and paraded in front of the cameras as civilians.
Also 'Israel has killed x women and children' Women can fight too, you know, and children can be given weapons. Anyone under 18 is a child, well, it's hardly beyond belief to have a 16 or 17 year old fighter is it? But when these fighters get killed suddenly they become the poor innocent oppressed women and children.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:42, Reply)
Or maybe I tell it to my friend
who nearly got blown up by a missile in Be'er Sheva.
I don't want civilian deaths, but when someone's trying to kill my comrades I sure as hell know what I want to do to Hamas, and if one Gazan lady dies, then it's a shame, but I'd rather she died than one of my friends.
I know it's trendy in this country to support the perceived underdog, but the champagne socialists here are playing with other people's lives based off propaganda and limited knowledge. What do you know of what's happened in the Democratic Republic of Congo in the past 40 years off the top of your head? What's to say your knowledge of the Middle East is any better? I know people there, I have ties there, I have direct links and up to date knowledge of the area, and I have to say, it's a whole lot different than the image painted in this country.
I feel sorry for the dad, but when in war soldiers fire to defend themselves; it's as simple as that. It's a shame, but then again, war is a shame.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:48, Reply)
but on the other hand
Yes I will assume you know your stuff, you clearly do. Better than myself but that doesn't make you more right. I'm of the camp that doesn't agree to forced seizure of land in '67. I mean, can you not understand why Palestine is pissed off at Israel? I don't condone violence in any form, and therefore the actions of either belligerent. But I don't think the IDF should be there. Also it worries me that you place different value on peoples lives.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:58, Reply)
The land before '67
wasn't Palestinian controlled; and was under far worse occupation from Egypt and Jordan.
Hamas is a wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition to Egypt's ruling elite and the Palestinians tried to overthrow the Hashemite kings, leading to Black September (after which there have been no problems in Jordan, funnily enough... welcome to the Middle East, got a problem? Flatten a town!)
It wasn't land seized from Palestinians, but from Jordan and Egypt.
I place different values on people's lives just as if someone pointed a weapon at your mother and a weapon and someone entirely different and asked you to make a decision (with no flipping of a coin) what would you do? It's not that they're Jews or Israelis that I place more value on their lives, but because they're my friends, my comrades, my tribe if you will. I wish I didn't have to, but at a time of war, I do.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:04, Reply)
But
It doesn't look like its much better for the Palestinians living there now than it was under Jordan or Egypt, how is this helping? Hamas firing rockets into Israel isn't, that's for sure, but kicking seven shades of shit out of everyone living there isn't either it seems. Would be nice if all parties could sort this out diplomatically (hah!). I just don't believe the population in that tiny area should be forced to live in a cage under the supervision of a country who seems angry that it exists in the first place.(a rash statement i know and general, and probably innacurate)
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:17, Reply)
How many Hamas Freedom Fighters do you think there is exactly?
And how can you know these things?
Are you there? Do you make the 'phone calls'?
Are you a human shield?
I Think that there is an awful lot of civilian casualties, no matter who may, or may not be, telling porkies. Based on the fact that those flats I watched being blown up Here Could not have been soley populated by Hamas.
On another note, leaflets(stating their intentions)were not dropped by the Israeli army until the ground offensive started, according to most press reports. So civvis could not have known about what was going to happen in the first instance.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:53, Reply)
One friend of mine made the phonecalls
another currently listens to Hamas phone conversations.
I'm not a human shield, I'm a target.
Also I'll Gaz you the article some other time, BBC may have to do, but it's of the organised human shield tactic.
Israel didn't drop leaflets because they had set up an entire propaganda campaign of misinformation. The head of defence even went on a satirical TV show mocking the concept of a war; the next day all Hamas were exactly where the Israelis expected to be and the first day had massive Hamas losses to relatively few civilian casualties; the 60 miltia/police deaths, for example.
It would be interesting to see over what period the civilian deaths occured.
Vidoes not loading, could you find a mirror? And why wouldn't these blocks be entirely Hamas? And if they're not, what are Hamas doing in the same blocks as civilians? We know full well they can afford to take however much Gazan land they choose.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:59, Reply)
Well that would bring me back to my first point...
How many Hamas freedom fighters were there at the start of this? And why wouldn't they live like normal people in normal Gazan flats?
Also, how rich do you think they are? If there is so many of them how far would the wealth go?
The video stream seems to be faulty. I'll see if I can find it elsewhere... it's a live webcam set up somewhere.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:13, Reply)