This guy makes me laugh
He makes sweeping allegations towards all religions, all the time, which just makes me think he's got absolutely no clue what he's talking about. I'm an Atheist, but he makes me cringe.
I'm well aware that a lot of people - especially on the internet - have an intense dislike for religion. I couldn't give two hoots. The whole Athiest bus campaign was a laugh, but it's actually quite sad that it had to come to this.
Essentially, he's now coming along and saying that all members of the muslim faith have no respect for anyone else, when really he means fundamentalist Muslims, just like fundamental Christians are a somewhat depressing phenomenon. Comparing the holy books of any religion to Mein Kampf is ridiculous, and as someone who has read Hitler's boring ramblings (somewhat illegally in my country)I feel I can comment.
Europe creeping towards Shariah law? For fuck's sake. The Dutch Freedom Party (just like the Austrian one) advocates anything but freedom for anyone who doesn't want to wear clogs. Wilder, the film-maker said "The Islamic ideology has as its utmost goal the destruction of what is most dear to us, our freedom".
Of course, the fact that these political parties exist, and their success, has a lot to do with people being worried that Muslims are slowly taking over their country. Minarets taller than church towers, women walking around without showing their faces or, as recently as now, somthing like 60% of muslim clerics in Austria (apparently)saying that they thought Democracy is an un-Islamic idea. I would say that these fears are more due to woeful integration policies and the sad failures of governments to show these people their new home.
There's a reason most of these people came to Europe: they were fleeing places where they had no freedom, no rights and were often being persecuted for one reason or another. I would think that the vast majority of them would rather not return, and their outrage at films like Wilders is somewhat justified. They're sick of being the scapegoat for everything, sick of being persecuted and sick of discrimination.
Europe's been through this whole blaming-a-religious-group-for-our-problems thing before, and it didn't end well.
In short: Jorvic needs to calm down and think his words through so that he doesn't come across as such a cunt
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morrybyte made a subtle namechange at, Sat 31 Jan 2009, 16:34,
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Duely noted
I am either drunk or hung over when im on here though..
And intollerance makes me very angry.. and when intollerance is being presented as somehow leftwing, yet somehow sounding very daily mail, it kind of confuses me and i start shouting ;)
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Jorvic, Sat 31 Jan 2009, 17:13,
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Sweeping generalisations! What are you talking about? I think he is pretty specific in most of his videos. I did think twice about posting this particular rant because I thought it might provoke exactly this sort of response (and I agree that the comparisons with Mein Kampf are a tad silly).
The entire concept of religion is nonsense and should constantly be challenged. It's no good differentiating the mild mannered anglicans or cheery muslims. It's all crap. The fundamentalists are clearly more loopy and dangerous but they gain support from an underlying belief that criticising religion may "offend" someone. Quite frankly, it's not the truth, it’s silly superstitious rubbish that damages people (especially women and children) and it needs to be consigned to the bin of history.
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Mod Edit, Sat 31 Jan 2009, 17:13,
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morry wasn't suggesting the guy is just anti-islam
re-read his first two sentences.
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chenobble rocking his explorer beard on, Sat 31 Jan 2009, 17:23,
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I'm not saying that Religion shouldn't be criticised, or at least i don't mean it that way
What I do think is that the kind of film we are talking about is unnecessary shitstirring, a publicity stunt by a politician who knew exactly how it would split the population: those who are with him, and those who aren't.
Yes, he has received death threats, but it doesn't surprise me. A certain amount of sensitivity is required when dealing with all deeply personal matters, not just religion - not that it makes it in any way acceptable to threaten him and send death-threats. He milks it, of course, if you look at any news stories about him immediately after the murder of Theo Van Gogh.
I think there's going to be a backlash against fundamentalist elements in both the Christian and Muslim faiths relatively soon, simply because the respective moderate members are finding it increasingly difficult not to be immediately interpreted as cunts when they say they are a member of a certain faith.
Tolerance and dialogue between faiths and their various inner branches should be the order of the day, and more and more are actually doing this and managing to coexist peacefully, even if in other places (eg Gaza) it shows no sign of improving. At least that's the way I see it from little old Vienna, but I have no idea what it's like in England. My nan from Grimsby told me her old Methodist Church got converted into a Mosque, but that's just because the only members of that Church are about 60 on average and dying daily.
I established a long time ago that religion is a load of balls when it tries to provide anythng other than hope and a sense of community, but from what I can see those last two are what drives people to constantly go back, that's what makes moderates go to Church on a Sunday. Not that God made the Earth in 7 days, those people are just crazy.
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morrybyte made a subtle namechange at, Sat 31 Jan 2009, 18:37,
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Well yes,
Up to a point. The trouble is that there is almost no tolerance in religious belief. Take a look at the recent edicts by the pope and tell me he is a tolerant, reasonable man. He is not and, actually, most seriously religious people are not either.
There comes a point when you have to stand up and say "no" and stand firm for rational thinking.
I agree that a backlash may be coming. The trouble is there is no obvious way of reconciling the believers with the sensible. The believers will not listen to anything that goes against their dogma so I think the only way to deal with it is constant, firm criticism.
Edit: Hope, yes but it's a false hope that encourages people to accept their lot in life.
Sense of community: do we really need religion for that?
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Mod Edit, Sat 31 Jan 2009, 18:57,
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Right, trying to bite my lip, ill try not to rant like a cunt, sorry if i do
Prop 8 in california was driven by religious peoples intollerance of homosexuals, I think its wrong that people were able to infringe on other peoples lives because of their dislike of their lifestyles.. Eaqually (as an athiest, or humanist or what ever i am) I think its wrong for there to be similar intollerance of religious people's lifestyles..
And this kind of discourse is part of that, and this guy's pure venom, especially aimed at islam (if he hates christianity so much, what was with the "happy xmas" one, i know he was probably trying to be ironic, it just seemed very childish to me.. sorry cuntishly rambling again...
basicly I hope to some day live in a world where.. if some one wants to put bolts through their face and coverthem selves in tattoos, that they will be respected and allowed to do that, the same way as some one weho wants to cover them selves completly will be respected and allowed to do that. I hope that if some one wishes to live their life openly without shame of their sexuality, and express their love publicly through marrage, will be respected and allowed to do so as much as some one who wishes to express their love to their god etc. through marrage.
ie. i want tollerance, legaly, moraly assured tollerance for every one, no matter what they think, believe, look like, dress etc.
Generaly that exists in the UK at least, but prop 8 shows how fragile that is.. And people like this self right...sorry (i am a hypocrit i can see that) people like this bloke only make these ideals more fragile.
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Jorvic, Sat 31 Jan 2009, 19:09,
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I don't claim that religion is needed to acquire a sense of communityq
However, it certainly is one of the easy ways of finding one if you move somewhere new. First thing one of my friends did when she moved was go to the local Evangelical branch - immediate friends, willing to help with whatever she needed (to an extent). There aren't many places you can do that. She's not a mental, and we've had some pretty good debates that only went out of hand once or twice. Luckily we managed to get them under control again.
I dislike the Pope, he was the wrong choice for Catholicism and a lot of Catholics agree, although they still listen to him since that's the way it works - which is exactly the problem. Religions are lost in their old-fashionedness, most haven't managed to move on, whatever religion you're talking about.
When you say believers I think you mean fundamentalists. It is true that they are very hard line, but what they believe in is so firmly ingrained in their minds that criticism will just, in my opinion at least, come across as insulting. The more moderate members of the same faith will be the ones who will convince their militant sides to finally shut the fuck up. A lot of these fundies are led to believe what they do by the interests of one, charismatic leader. They are the ones that mess everything up.
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morrybyte made a subtle namechange at, Sat 31 Jan 2009, 19:36,
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Bit late - sorry had to put child to bed.
In the end it boils down to: is it true? If it's not it's bollocks and should be fought because it poisons people and causes great harm to many (or false hope, which equates to harm in my view).
Let's face it - it's not true is it?
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Mod Edit, Sat 31 Jan 2009, 21:50,
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