I'll respond, since I was one of those people
And I'll freely admit that I don't know what the answer is.

I think pure Marxism-Leninism, as written by them, sounds like the way forward. But, as you point out, it has never worked in practice in the real world; human nature being what it is, the people at the top will always abuse it.

But neither do I believe that free-market capitalism as followed by the Western world since the Industrial Revolution is a good idea; it has fatal flaws as well. As has recently been proved, people will also abuse this to create vast profits for themselves and fuck everyone else. How do you justify allowing a financial sector with almost no regulations to gamble with other people's money and lose?

So no, I'm not advocating that we become Communists, although my personal beliefs run along those lines. But we need to take a very long, very hard look at this culture of greed, rampant consumerism and encouragement of 'buy now, pay later'. The divide between rich and poor countries is increasing. We have broken the planet through our efforts to produce more and more pointless shit that people didn't need and couldn't afford to buy.

And, to all the smug cunts with their 'I'm alright Jack' attitude, variable mortgages and 'safe jobs', I would like to say:

Firstly, fuck you. Have a bit of fucking heart.

Secondly, we have not seen anything yet. We have just entered an unprecedented recession, most comparisons to previous ones ignore the fusing together of the global economy that has happened under unregulated free market conditions. The issues with people's personal debts, and the job losses we've seen to far, as bad as they seem to the people having problems, are the tip of the fucking iceberg. Countries, and governments, are in so much debt that it's impossible to even conceive how they're going to manage to pay this off and sort it out. Have you any idea what would happen if all of the UK's debts were called in tomorrow? Your house would be owned by a Japanese bank, for starters. Your lack of personal debts will be entirely irrelevant. Once the banking system goes, next will be the big companies, and on and on like dominoes until there is nothing left. The house of cards is more than slightly unstable, to mix metaphors it's been built on the sinking sand.

This is not just a media generated panic. Wake up, do a bit of research, and be very very worried. This is just starting and it's going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better. The very real possibility exists that in five years time you will be wishing that you lived in North Korea.

Do you really want to live in a world ruled by corporations? Because that's what we're heading towards if we continue with this capitalist approach.

I'm not trying to be some doomsaying 'the end is nigh' merchant, but this is a worst case scenario that has to be considered. There is absolutely no precedent in history for it.

And I really hope that the smug cunts get fucked over first, because I'm pretty vindictive like that.

[I really hope that this doesn't become the end of the world as we know it, but if you do a bit of reading you have to acknowledge that it may well do. Nobody knows what's going to happen, not even the people who claim to be experts.]
(Son of Sam-i-am We're all as mad as hatters here, Fri 23 Jan 2009, 12:14, 1 reply)

Ok, I'll retort.
And I think you've made some pretty good points. However....

You asked how I justify allowing a financial sector with almost no regulations to gamble with other people's money and lose? Answer is I don't. Regulation is vital, but my argument is that even ineffective regulation is better than state control. Yes we are in a financial mess currently due to inadequate banking regulations, government borrowing and a general gimmie gimmie gimmie attitude. However, we're not starving to death or queuing up for state distributed potatoes either.

The problem is not the wrong sort of government, or the wrong sort of law. It's the wrong sort of people. An example pulled out of my arse: How many people do you know that can afford 2 pounds a month? The answer (unless they are actually really and truely homeless) should be all of them. How many of them give that 2 quid to charity? Statistically it'll be very few. People are greedy fuckers - communism exacerbates that, capitalism allows it. The key I think is to find a way to limit its effect on the less fortunate.

You also say:

"And, to all the smug cunts with their 'I'm alright Jack' attitude, variable mortgages and 'safe jobs', I would like to say:

Firstly, fuck you. Have a bit of fucking heart."

No, I won't. I'm a smug cunt because I moved jobs and worked for tossers and commuted for hours and learn new skills and moved jobs again to get my 'safe' job. It didn't fall into my lap, I earnt it because I sat down and did some sensible thinking about what and where I needed to be several years ahead. If I'd been chasing big cash I'd have been at my last company when it went down the tubes.

I have reasonable rent rather than negative equity because my eyes didn't light up with pound signs when the banks offered the 5x mortgage.

I'm alright because I've been bloody careful to stay that way, despite the apparent opportunities this cost me at the time. Most of the people who are fucked because of the property situation at the moment brought it on themselves. I have more sympathy for those made redundant recently, but even then I know a few (and I actually really do) who got made redundant from jobs that were obviously unsustainable but they stayed because the company car was flashy or the expense account was bottomless.


Finally, you are being a bit doom and gloom. I'd like to point out that this currently isn't actually a recession. It's far too early to tell how deep and nasty it's going to be, and as with all these things, a negative attitude generally leads to panic, and that leads to a worsening of the situation as all the markets shit themselves. The banks negativity has caused them to not pass on their last governmental handout, prompting another one. We should be looking at how to improve it, not ripping out our hair and screaming about it.

The current batch of 'smug cunts' won't get hit by anything. They're currently smug because they had enough brainpower to avoid all this shit in the first place, so rather than do that typical human thing and attack the more fortunate, lets learn from that, and not fuck it all up again.


That was all typed without any sort of overall idea, so I apologise for the bits that don't scan very well. I wasn't expecting a debate, but for what it's worth I am enjoying it!
(NoveltyCondomHead Clanks Wams., Fri 23 Jan 2009, 12:38, closed)

Debate away!
I deliberately pitched my post as a sort of worst-case scenario. I'm not saying that's what WILL happen, I'm just saying that people need to entertain the possibility. This isn't what I go around saying in general, I just wanted some sort of riposte to the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude that I disagree with.

(btw: it is now a recession, two successive quarters of negative growth according to the ONS, who I'm pretty sure wouldn't call it a recession unless they absolutely had to)

I was trying to make the point that this is not about personal borrowing. I completely agree that the people who borrowed stupid amounts to buy status symbols acted stupidly. But can you honestly expect any different of a culture where we're constantly bombarded with messages to BUY BUY BUY, a consumerist society where more possessions = being better, and banks that happily gave out credit to anyone, without asking what it was for, until the gravy train ran off the rails.

There will always be the sensible ones such as yourself, but you can't expect everyone to be able to manage their money sensibly when credit, and things to buy with it, are so aggressively marketed!

But that's by the by; as I said, and as PJM has pointed out, the problem is not with personal borrowing. It's the amount the government, and the country (which effectively counts us as part of it) are in hock. There isn't enough money in the world to pay all the debts in the world - how the fuck does that work? There's the historical fact that Britain has always punched above its weight, and been a more important country than its size, population and economy would suggest. So many people were happy to lend us money. As I said above, what happens if those debts start being called in? The banks will call in all their loans to finance it.

And having no mortgage on your house and years of being sensible isn't really going to help you when all the shops shut, we can't afford to import any oil - or anything in fact (the UK is a net importer of just about everything)

Unchecked and largely unregulated globalisation means that all the houses of cards are built on each other, inextricably linked, and it will probably take less than you think to make the whole thing topple. And it might not even be caused by anything in this country.

I'm not trying to be some sort of prophet as I said, I was just pointing out that people need to take a wider view than the fact they've paid off their mortgage, because that won't matter a damn if the whole country goes down the tube.

Oh - and something else we haven't really touched upon, for which there is quite a lot of historical precedent. We have to consider the increased likelihood of World War 3. And I fucking hope it doesn't go that far.

(This is a bit quick and probably slightly incoherent as I'm typing it in a rush before I go to lunch, so apologies. More after lunch!!)
(Son of Sam-i-am We're all as mad as hatters here, Fri 23 Jan 2009, 12:53, closed)

well,
On the recession point, the f'ing website didn't have those details when I checked, so yup, we all recession shaped now!

To be honest I can't find anything I disagree with in this post. I still feel that if the whole house of cards drops there are ways out, but overall I do agree with you in principle.

More after a sarnie run!


ps: I think the World War 3 bit is a tad extreme though - I think the likelyhood of this is pretty low these days, certainly lower than it was in the 80's. Now that the warmongering trigger happy xenophobic horrendous spaz-brained little turd hole Bush is gone, I feel much better about it.
(NoveltyCondomHead Clanks Wams., Fri 23 Jan 2009, 12:59, closed)