you know how everyone in the US thinks Tony Blair is fucking amazing?
join the club.
i've no problem with obama, but he never claimed to be a new 'type' of politician. oh, and you are talking about the healthcare bill:
'deals cut behind closed doors to buy (with taxpayer money) the allegiance of the weak'. you watch glenn beck AICMFP.
( the brass moustache putting the ass moust in brache since, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 18:53, 1 reply)

Well....
He did claim to be a new type of politician, over and over. The back-door deals I was speaking about concerned the bailouts to Wall Street where one firm got hammered and the other got favors, e.g. the AIG bail-out was a honey of a deal for Goldman Sachs, all close political friends.

Don't watch Beck, I'd rather play Halo 3, but I do read quite a bit.

My apologies to the board for making you think this post was funny, given all the replies. I started out somewhat bemused and tongue-in-cheek, but I apparently hit the wrong nerve.

BrokenCoccyx, over and out.
( BrokenCoccyx doesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 19:15, closed)

then what does 'allegiance of the weak' mean?
the problem you've got here, sonnyjim, is that you've gone ahead and made a lot of accusations, and when drawn into debate (which, on b3ta, will happen anytime you make a semi-contentious argument about anything at all), haven't pulled up any facts to support yourself, and instead you've simply reiterated your points and then made some excuse and disappeared.
like most b3tans, i'm british. we are fiercely proud of our national healthcare system. i now live in canada, where they are also very proud of govt. sponsored healthcare. it seems to us that most of the criticism of obama really came into play once he outlined a plan that many pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies felt threatened by. as far as i'm concerned, he's fought his bollocks off for something that will have a lasting benefit for millions of people caught at the bottom of the system. he can now rape as many kittens as he wants. it'll take something monumental (like going into an unjustified war) for him to get remembered for something else.
( the brass moustache putting the ass moust in brache since, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 19:45, closed)

Kittin rape FTW
They're asking for it, the furry harlots.
( flake has nothing against your right leg, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 19:55, closed)

Don't know why I let myself
OK, sonnyjames, if you look at the replies, I did give facts. No, the allegiance of the weak comment was not about healthcare, it was about bailing out weak financial institutions that should have failed: yes, it may hurt, but sometimes tough times make you stronger - read the earlier reply, I can't be much clearer!

As for healthcare, I lived in Canada for a few years and it seemed that aside from sniffles, if there was important stuff to be done, then people went to the States for operations because they could get them done faster.

I have lived on Indian reservations and the government has failed. Under the American system, my son, Congress has to appropriate money for any program, including healthcare. That is why Medicare and Medicaid are BANKRUPT (and filled with graft, corruption and waste). If Congress, does not appropriate the money (say, because they want to get votes from one state, or one interest of the other) then the funding stays at the same level or they go into deficit spending. Indian Health Services has been at the same funding level since 2002, because Congress just doesn't care about Indians and they have other votes to buy.

There's a saying on the rez not to get sick after August, because you will only get pain meds to last you till the next year.

I simply don't believe government needs to control all aspects of our life, health and economy. The only result is dependence and I have better things to be dependent on.

PS: kittens give that come hither look and then claim that "no" means "no".
( BrokenCoccyx doesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 20:32, closed)

i'm aware that most govt. run health systems have failings
but the cost of paying to privatised, profit-driven companies has meant that the average american spends waaaaay more on healthcare ( www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2007/Jan/Slowing-the-Growth-of-U-S--Health-Care-Expenditures--What-Are-the-Options.aspx ) than virtually anywhere else in the world. at the very least, this bill stops insurance companies from dropping coverage, and will help people with pre-existing medical conditions.
Natives have a very hard time of it in Canada too. I'm the last person to say it's their fault, but due to the tax free status of the reservations, not enough politicians will have an interest in representing their needs to parliament/congress. It's not like the reservation casino money has been ploughed back into the communities they plunder for profit.
Whilst I agree that not everything should be state-run, some industries are too close to essential services to be privatised. Would you allow the police or fire services to be completely privatised? The point is that there are some things that every state should be able to say are offered to every citizen, and healthcare really needs to be one of them. If you don't think so, then I suggest living without it for a while. Presently, I am without any healthcare coverage in Canada until my Visa is sorted. Until that point, I'm shitting myself. Not for if something happens to me, but for the cost of it when it comes.
Finally, the problem that immediately comes to mind when people in the US talk of how they'd rather have their independence is that there are so many people who slip through the cracks, especially those with mental health problems or intellectual disabilities. My wife suffers from an anxiety disorder that can be crippling if not managed with subsidised medication (there's no way we'd be able to afford the full cost of it), and recently had an attack so bad that she called 911. paramedics and the fire service were at the house within five minutes, by which time she was beginning to calm down. in a privatised system. we'd have been faced with a massive bill for the callout. it wasn't a false call, or a false alarm, but there's no provision for that when every callout needs its costs recovered directly. some would call it a waste of resources, which is fine with me. all i know is i don't have a choice.

edit: i won't even get started on the bailout stuff. i really will be here all day. all i'll say is that your attitude is indicative of the american stance: 'if they've got the most money, it means they worked harder than everyone else to get it, so they deserve more than people who are too lazy to get jobs'. i'm no socialist, but i've heard this kind of view far too often, and it's myopic beyond belief.
( the brass moustache putting the ass moust in brache since, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 21:05, closed)

Sorry about your wife
First, despite your little dig, as far as the bail-outs go, I was clear that I was against them. What made me more mad was that some firms were allowed to fail and others (with the right political ties) got bailouts - see AIG/Goldman Sachs and their relation to the Secy of Treasury.

But I do believe that if a doctor decides to dedicate 14+ years of his life, incur hellish debt and go through the hell they do to be certified instead of smoking dope and dropping out, then he should earn more. More power to him. Same for a painter that wants to paint more or a kitten that spend more hours on the street corner.

Healthcare costs are really not lower due to the higher taxes, that tend to hit things that the poor need or want (like tanning or something silly). The other problem is that there are mandates which mean that only certain insurance companies (with the right political ties) get to work in a certain state - open that up and competition would drop the prices.

I was in a similar situation as you while in Canada. As for medication, there are many private companies, like the chain Target that provide low-cost generics, often for $4 a prescription. There are ways to make it work without some bureaucrat deciding what you need.

The taxation issue on Indian country is a myth. Yes, if the income is derived on the reservation, they don't pay STATE taxes, but still must pay FEDERAL taxes. Also, of the 500+ reservations in the states about half have casinos, and about 10% have large enough population bases to make them really profitable.

The only interest politicians have (I'll except John Thune, Tom Daschle, Tim Johnson, and their ilk) most only care for Indians at election time.

I too have been without insurance for almost a year due to losing full-time employment. I have worked out payment systems for the thousands of dollars my broken coccyx has cost me the past few months. My behind, my problem.
( BrokenCoccyx doesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 21:43, closed)

yes on the bailout stuff.
it's a joke how so many dollars were handed over to companies that then also went on to pay their execs huge bonuses to boot. it felt like a smack in the face when it happened in the UK. there seemed to be a lot going on behind closed doors, though i know that each bailout appeal was presented to committee and examined thoroughly, with some degree of independence.

unfortunately, i say no to just about everything else.

doctors can certainly earn as much as they like, but kickbacks from pharm companies and charging more for treatments are no way of going about that. i'd like to think that my doctor, as with my local politicians, do what they do for the sake of helping people. any artist paints for arts sake, and any kitten kittens for kittenings sake. the moment that the money becomes more important than the care is the moment you should stop working as a trusted and licensed medical practitioner. should a soldier switch sides if he gets offered more money?

by 'competition would drop the prices', you mean that prices may be in competition with each other, but the market value is set by the industry, which is self protecting. they do have shareholders to report to after all. hence the privatised price of care/insurance is always going to be higher than the socialised cost.

meds in canada can be cheap. one of the ones my wife takes is quite reasonable, but the generic edition of another is $50 a month, down from $80. when we lived in the UK, there was a flat rate of $10 a prescription, regardless of the drug.

state taxes are way more than federal taxes.

i genuinely hope nothing else happens to you until you get your insurance back. if not, then good luck, because you're a car/stair/kitten accident away from being in debt for the rest of your life.
( the brass moustache putting the ass moust in brache since, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 22:03, closed)

I do worry about the cats. Prostibulae!

( BrokenCoccyx doesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 22:13, closed)

Who Decides?
Sorry mate, I have read the thread and I would like to point out one glaring flaw in your argument. The wish not to let 'bureaucrats' decide on you health care is something I support, but at the moment the insurance companies decide, and that comes down to a cost/benefit analysis, your ability to pay being the benefit,and the treatment the cost. Get where I'm coming from?

I really hope you guys over the pond sort out the healthcare thing, because you pay twice as much out of your salary than I did as a Brit, and you get a far worse deal (as long as you take the entire population as a whole as your sample, rather than say Bill Gates) than we do.

Also, it takes two to tango. Bipartinsanship is hard thing to achieve unilaterally, and from where I sit, the GOP hasn't been a willing partner.
(micmac is happy as a pig in shite, Wed 24 Mar 2010, 23:32, closed)