"the 'unelected' bit especially"
Did you get to vote on the European Commission, or it's President? You know, the executive body? No you didn't.
The only bit you've ever got to vote on is the European Parliament, the weakest part of the Legislature. It has the power of censure, did you know that? That power allows it to issue stern rebukes which may be safely ignored. It allows it to make recommendations that are not binding. It's not even allowed to initiate a legislative process.
Look. I voted to remain, and I still think it's the correct choice, but for fucks sake learn about just HOW undemocratic the EU is before you pretend that it is, or you'll be perpetuating your own set of lies.
(, Fri 3 Apr 2020, 9:19, Reply)
There are many many posts
in the UK government that we do not directly vote on.
Home secretary, lord chancellor, the list goes on.
But we directly elect the people who do decide the people in those posts.
If that is a problem when the EU does it, it should be a problem in our own parliament.
Because in the EU, it is not just one party who decides who gets in those posts but it is here. No oversight, they can just put in who they want.
And most of our country is run by civil servants who never have to risk their job in a ballot box. And don't get me started on the house of lords.
This country we both sit in is just as undemocratic or worse. Our government, until the recent crisis, has been implementing a consistent policy of racism and reduction in anything that could help people and with no possibility of veto. At least the EU put in laws that mostly helped, and the UK used to have a veto.
And anyway, The Commission can only propose laws in those areas where the EU governments have unanimously agreed to allow it to do under the EU treaty. Put another way, the Commission can only propose EU laws in areas where the UK government and the House of Commons had allowed it to do so.
Also, ‘proposing’ is not the same as ‘deciding’. A Commission proposal only becomes law if it is approved by both a qualified-majority in the EU Council (unanimity in many sensitive areas) and a simple majority in the European Parliament. The directly elected members can stop enything they like by refusing it a simple majority.
Unlike the British government, which commands a majority in the House of Commons, the Commission does not command an in-built majority in the EU Council or the European Parliament, and so has to build a coalition issue-by-issue. This puts the Commission in a much weaker, and as a result more democratic, position in the EU system than the British government in the UK system.
Second, the Commission President and the Commissioners are indirectly elected. Under Article 17 of the EU treaty, as amended by the Lisbon Treaty, the Commission President is formally proposed by the European Council (the 28 heads of government of the EU member states), by a qualified-majority vote, and is then ‘elected’ by a majority vote in the European Parliament.
And you directly vote for people who become members of the European parliament.
This is how representative democracy works, your representatives autonomously act without a vote on every decision until you vote in another one. It's how your MP and Parliament works, and nobody is complaining about that.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Fri 3 Apr 2020, 10:12,
Reply)
This country we both sit in is just as undemocratic or worse.
Nonsense.
But we directly elect the people who do decide the people in those posts.
We vote with the knowledge of who is already either nominated to hold, or already holding those offices, and it is taken into account. We get to vote on that team. We have no idea and no say even indirectly about the commission, we have no interaction with that team. In my view representative democracy becomes much less representative once it has been allowed to chain completely indirectly.
And most of our country is run by civil servants who never have to risk their job in a ballot box.
Does the EU not also have this problem to an even greater degree?
[stuff about domestic policy and racism]
Not relevant.
This puts the Commission in a much weaker, and as a result more democratic, position
Being the only body that can initiate legislative procedure means it essentially dictates the entire agenda. This puts it in a position of comparative strength.
Look... I wasn't in favour of Brexit. I think it will prove to be a mistake in the long run. But you're blind if you can't see that there are genuine issues with the way parts of it are setup. There is zero engagement between the people of Europe and the Commission, and regardless of any technical arguments for or against it's democraticness, people feel entirely disconnected from it.
To pretend there weren't genuinely decent concerns about the nature of the EU in amongst all the bullshit simply isn't reasonable.
(, Fri 3 Apr 2020, 14:31, Reply)