i think we have some common ground in that we both don't think the concept of gender is purely biological
though I'm more in the germain greer camp (and this is only the basis of one article of hers I read on the subject) that "woman" includes lived experience and upbringing as a girl as well as biology and hormonal factors . Nor do I think it's a entirely cultural construct. I think gendered roles can vary between cultures but there is a fair commonality in very diverse societies to gendered roles, suggesting that such constructs are still intrinsically tied to biology rather than arbitrarily imposed. even the rare anomalous ones vary only to the point of equality, where women might share hunting. but even if gender were purely an imposed cultural construct of our culture, that's the culture we live in, and a transperson will be without those cultural experiences that we say makes a man or woman. It still counts unless you think simply calling them cultural constructs means they can be dismissed. And my example was not intended to suggest flippancy, though the reasons for transistion can vary (and I note the BMA proposal that you or someone else linked advocated doing away with current medical/psyche assessment in favour of self-certification, meaning you'll probably get the extreme fetishists doing it too). I used it to show that the transition can and does occur in middle-age or later, meaning that person will be without any cultural or lived experience of the opposite gender for most of their lives and those crucial early years when most of our development occurs.
I don't want to push someone elses barrrow, as a bloke what transpeople do has almost no impact on me apart from minor intellectual annoyance at categorisation that doesnt reflect what I see are fairly obvious differences with other people already given that assignation.
As a compromise, I'd favour allowing transpeople to assume the rights and services of their new gender, but only after a 10 year period where they are in some intermediate category, like transwomen. Similar to how you have spend 10 years as permanent resident in switzerland to get citizenship, followed by a check where they came into your house or business unannounced to make sure you're a committed swiss (I had a mate refused because they found a bunch of cheaper french products in his house. he lived in geneve, so it must have been tempting to nick accross the border to the hypermarts). This would also mean that they would have 10 years of living as the new gender under their belt. Not sure how workable this idea is...
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Tue 24 Aug 2021, 10:29,
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@Cumquat
This is where being clear about terms is important: absolutely gender isn’t biological, because the term refers to - depending on which usage is in play - ones sense of self (metaphysical) or a set of cultural associations.
But sex *is* purely biological, and the cultural context of sex didn’t arise arbitrarily, it arose because of the sex differences and the body as a resource
(, Tue 24 Aug 2021, 10:56, Reply)
im not sure you can be clear
language is a mutual agreement on meaning to facilitate communication, and we have a disagreement on categories. This does happen from time to time. How I define a woman sounds like it's different to some people, and I'm not the arbiter. all I can do is make a case that it sounds more sensible to not classify transwoman as women because they differ in most other areas apart from identity and dress (and it tends to be only those who have an issue with it that dwell a lot on their own gender identity, so this also sets them apart), and that also it's not a decision without consequence to women, as there are a myriad of ways that women are treated differently and have access to services on the basis of their gender, and there are complex reasons as why this is that will be directly challenged by the categorising transwomen as women. transmen much less so, as apart from religious nutters, most of us couldn't give a shit if some shiela wanted to try her hand at being a bloke. It's not like they'll stop us getting some imaginary men's business grant or prevent other men winning the tennis. though who knows what will upset millenials...
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Tue 24 Aug 2021, 11:38,
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