On the topic of statues
I tend towards keeping them but updating the plaque if necessary as societal norms change.
But that float - I can't put my finger on why but a recreation of the event as it happened seems massively disrespectful.
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tarka_dall Like normal dall, only a bit more spicy, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 18:10,
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Not sure how that'll work on a plaque, what's your idea?
Like, "BTW, Churchill was a bit racist"?
---I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it - it's a genuine question.
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 18:28, Share, Reply)
That's a fair question
I'm not sure there's an answer that will cover all cases. For Churchill I can appreciate that some people feel aggrieved that he is almost universally celebrated. If the plaque doesn't currently say "He was brill" then I'd argue that anyone who cared should look it up and find the history, hopefully warts and all.
Would having a link to online up-to-date information (I hesitate to suggest a QR code) satisfy the argument that the truth should be told? I suspect that a minority will only be satisfied by the removal of the monument - IMHO that smacks of erasing history, but I'm lucky enough to have not suffered discrimination.
BTW was there a link recently to a video about the case for/against removing statues? I need to watch that.
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tarka_dall Like normal dall, only a bit more spicy, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 19:39,
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Hmm, it is difficult.
The current Wikipedia article about him has over 600 words before pretty much a footnote, "and also for his imperialist views, including comments on race."
That will no doubt change soon.
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 21:01, Share, Reply)
The problem with these fuckwits defacing statues and chucking them into harbours
Is that they're unwilling or unable to put the actions/beliefs of these historical figures into any kind of logical context or perspective.
They're holding these individuals to the 'woke' moral standards of the 21st century despite the fact that Colston, for example, was making his mark in the late sixteen-fucking-hundreds.
Churchill, fair enough, a bit more contemporary. But so fucking what if he was 'a bit racist'? It was the first half of the 20th Century. Find me a White British Aristocrat from that era that didn't have some kind of racial prejudice.
I get that it doesn't make having a racial prejudice any less bad, but he probably wasn't surrounded by the types of people that would have been challenging him to rethink his views on those kinds of things.
This fucking 'cancel culture' nonsense is a cancer. Colston was involved in a trade that in 2021 is almost universally agreed as being deplorable. But if you continue to erase these figures from history, you also continue to erase the relevance of the slave trade as (for better or worse) an incredibly important factor in the industrial revolution and ultimately the Britain we live in today.
It's important that we keep these kinds of figures relevant. Because they are relevant. Bristol has a statue of Colston because he's incredibly historically relevant to Bristol. 'Cancelling' him not only prevents people from learning about his positive aspects, but also his negative ones. Give people the option to make their own minds up about these figueres. Otherwise it amounts to nothing but censorship.
We don't need an obituary on these plaques. Just a name and date of birth/death. If people want to learn more they can visit the local museum or plug the person's name into their portable telecomputer. Still won't be enough for the Moral Outrage Hunters, mind.
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 20:51, Share, Reply)
Would you be happy in a house or workplace with a picture of Hitler on the wall?
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 21:15, Share, Reply)
Well that would depend entirely on the relevance.
Is it a Hitler museum?
I think we can all agree that the reason these statues are usually erected is that the historical figure being depicted has both local relevance and has left a lasting positive legacy on the local area. I don't really know where poor Adolf would meet those criteria outside a war museum.
I'm by no means an advocate of Churchill. If anything, I think these days he mostly serves as an icon for the tabloid reading nationalist gammon scum. But should he be commemorated? Abso-fucking-lutely.
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 21:20, Share, Reply)
Nah, I mean like... in your regular workplace.
For example.
If they had swastikas on the walls.
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 21:39, Share, Reply)
What would my workplace be commemorating through the medium of Nazi imagery?
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 21:57, Share, Reply)
Buddhism?
I knew a (white, European) guy who had a bunch of Buddhist swastikas tattooed about his person. He didn't loved to tell people that there wasn't any problem with that, and delighted in correcting people who thought he was a Nazi.
Bit of cock really.
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Invisible Wizard - 9th Level Pissant, Wed 15 Sep 2021, 6:50,
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I'm pretty sure he was a nazi,
and you're the only person who swallowed the Buddhism story.
(, Wed 15 Sep 2021, 12:39, Share, Reply)
There's quite a difference between a religious swastika and a Nazi one
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Invisible Wizard - 9th Level Pissant, Wed 15 Sep 2021, 18:04,
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True. But the differences are entirely contextual.
I've met individuals like the chap you mentioned. In my experience, they're neither far-right nationalists nor followers of Buddhism/Hinduism/etc.
More often than not, they're the slightly unhinged types teetering on the edge of full-blown mental illness who enjoy the attention they receive from being provocative and/or non-conformist. The types of folk usually dealing with some kind of unresolved childhood trauma who would rather end up on the streets with a roaring smack addiction than even consider appearing vulnerable by asking for help.
Nonetheless, if that's the case, then the swastika's purpose is to cause controversy/offense and therefore is a 'bad' swastika - in my opinion.
(, Wed 15 Sep 2021, 18:25, Share, Reply)
"Bristol has a statue of Colston because he's incredibly historically relevant to Bristol."
Bristol has a statue of Colston because he was a wealthy and influential establishment figure who made substantial philanthropic donations. Part of his wealth was the proceeds of slave trading.
Nobody has "cancelled" Colston. In fact, I would go so far as to say that recent events have probably raised his historical profile higher than it has been for many years. I think that displaying the toppled statue with its graffiti in a museum setting, with appropriate background on Colston and the associated protests makes for much more interesting and engaging history than a nondescript public statue that most people pass without a second glance.
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 22:04, Share, Reply)
Agreed to all of the above.
Do you honestly believe the mob had planned all that in advance, though? Or was it just a happy accident set in motion by a bunch of fuckwit SJW's practicing some social disobedience?
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 22:17, Share, Reply)
My understanding is that people have been objecting to Colston's statue and the failure to address the slaving aspect of his history for many years.
I think the BLM protests gave momentum and a much higher profile to complaints that people had been making for a long time, with limited effect. Given the mood of the moment, I think people seized the opportunity to knock the statue down, and I reckon that was no bad thing.
(, Wed 15 Sep 2021, 19:10, Share, Reply)
If you care so much about the history of Colston...
Then you should understand that firstly the statue wasn't erected until more than 170 years after his death.
theconversation.com/edward-colston-statue-toppled-how-bristol-came-to-see-the-slave-trader-as-a-hero-and-philanthropist-140271
Secondly they tried and failed to agree on a plaque before the statue was pulled down.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-47670756
(, Wed 15 Sep 2021, 22:32, Share, Reply)
How many people stop and read the wee plaques on statues? I'm all for taking these statues down and sticking them in a museum surrounded by displays that give a bit of context about the person and their background. That seems a lot more relevant and educational than just leaving contentious statues in place "because history".
I've even seen some people suggesting that all figurative statues of real historical figures should be removed from public places (regardless of whether they were "good" or "bad") which is a bit extreme, but I see where they are coming from.
(, Tue 14 Sep 2021, 22:14, Share, Reply)