We are however the only animals smart enough to ask the question.
Does a wasp care about the caterpillar it’s eating alive? Do orcas play with seals because deep down they’re sadistic bastards? When it comes to brb’s point about food animals I would gently say that humans are one of very few predators that try to kill what we eat as quickly as possible and the others that do only do so to stop their food running away.
On a less flippant note, how does an animal feel full when it has nothing to feel with? It reminded me of Charles Stross’s Accellerando where one of the characters rants that lobsters only need 14 neurons to manage their digestive system and they have business being so uncomplicated. I’d put the quote up but searching on a Kindle is all kinds of broken.
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jonbob loves you, Sun 16 Jun 2024, 23:59,
Reply)
Or we're the only species dumb enough to ask the question.
I think you're conflating morality and consciousness. It makes sense to me that carnivores should evolve to find pleasure in killing. A carnivore that naturally despises hunting is going to have a depressing time before it goes extinct.
I am sure that all social animals have culture, and that each culture contains some kind of morality/proto-morality, and I am sure that all animals have natural instincts defining behaviours that are the basis of moralities.
Your third question seems to negate itself because the article explains how the brainless animal feels using its nervous system.
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brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Mon 17 Jun 2024, 1:03,
Reply)
I don't think it's that simple.
Just on a basic comparison of senses they perceive the world in different ways and you can't give a whale a personality test.
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FeralCatMan Unusual disease collector., Mon 17 Jun 2024, 1:15,
Reply)
I do. Other animals absolutely don't experience pain and emotions the way we do.
That's not to suggest they don't experience either at all, though. Stick a needle in a mouse and it's pretty obvious that it felt pain and will run away from you in the future. Come home from work feeling sad and your four legged friend might well pick up on it and try to comfort you. To make a somewhat extreme counter-argument, however, when was the last time you heard of an animal jumping off a cliff out of sheer despair? Obviously you can't ask it how it was feeling first (or after) but wouldn't you agree that suicide was a uniquely human thing?
Consciousness though? Fuck knows, ask two scientists to define it and you'll get three different answers. If you can't agree on that the question "are animals conscious" is meaningless. If you asked me I'd say they generally aren't, because I'd think you were asking if animals were self-aware and while some do show signs of theory of mind most don't.
There's definitely a continuum of... something... and humans are at the far end, but there are a few other species out there that are pretty damned close. Just teach a gorilla sign language and ask her.
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jonbob loves you, Mon 17 Jun 2024, 2:30,
Reply)
Yes there is a continuum.
I guess part of the difficulty is we are looking at it from our way of perceiving, some of the more intelligent creatures (like octopuses) may have a radically different model of reality and thought.
As for the suicide question, I see that as more of a learned helplessness and giving up, rather than animals actively killing themselves.
I suspect the question of consciousness is so difficult and bound up with our projections and expectations as to be unanswerable.
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FeralCatMan Unusual disease collector., Mon 17 Jun 2024, 12:07,
Reply)
Given that, apparently, communications between humans whose IQ's differ by more than about two standard deviations can be difficult, is it any wonder that empathising with other creatures might be a a tad problematic?
TLDR: I can't fucking stand dealing with retards.
(, Wed 19 Jun 2024, 10:12, Reply)
"Other animals absolutely don't experience pain and emotions the way we do."
Prove it.
I can accept the idea that animals with completely different hormones to us may feel differently, but if it's the same biology doing the same chemistry then it's obviously the same.
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brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Mon 17 Jun 2024, 16:02,
Reply)