Israel has every right to conduct the best defense of all and go on the attack
every war it has fought has been brought on by the provocation by Arabs doing stuff like attacking it; or about to do so
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Jahled Three shades of black, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 21:53,
Reply)
Byzantine was a Christian country
and was taken by force.
Sorry, what?
Before now-Israel was British it was Ottoman. The Arabs made almost no use of the land, it was either swamp or desert; Tel Aviv was built out of a desert, kibbutzim did all the hard work, farms and villages were constructed where previously it was thought impossible. Israel isn't made up of villages taken from Arabs, Israel is made up of hard graft, then war happened, then Israel expanded.
In 1947 the UN gave a scenario, Israel said yes, the Arabs said 'all or nothing' - they got nothing. The other Arab states took the Paletinian Arab land, Israel may have occupied Palestine for 40 years, but Egypt and Jordan did it, in far worse methods, for 20 years prior to that. Each time Israel has expanded has been after an attack from an enemy. Then Israel withdraws from Gaza, leaving greenhouses, community centres and synagogues (due to reluctance to tear them down) - the Arabs tear down the synagogues, fair enough, they're a structure that signify the enemy, but they also tore down the greenhouses and the community centres - then fired rockets into Israel as thanks. They did themselves no favours.
If anyone really does give a flying fuck about the Palestinians it's about time they stopped playing into the hands of the Arab elite and instead criticised the real bastards in this situation, the House of Saud, the Hashemite Kings, the Assad Family. They're dynasties that rule the middle east, and subject their common populace to hideous living standards, oh, and regularly fuck the Palestinian Arabs over.
(, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 22:04, Reply)
Well, that's the retard way of viewing history
given loads of jews were living there long before the Second World War; and who would have forgiven loads of them for wanting to get out of Europe after what they went through in the thirties and forties
I genuinely suspect a great deal of injustices were committed by those new settlers on the Arabs living there, such as evicting them from homes etc; but the historical context was somewhat inevitable given six million of them had just been exterminated in Europe; I doubt some of them gave a fuck for the rest of humanity after what humanity put them through, and just wanted a heaven where it could never happen again
The rest, as they say is a load of bollocks
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Jahled Three shades of black, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 22:15,
Reply)
fuck off
the sooner Israel no longer exists the better. Zionist bastards
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Flash_Bastard, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 22:17,
Reply)
Yeah!
Let's replace Israel, the only true democracy in the middle east with equal rights for all sexes and sexualities, freedom of worship and all that yummy stuff as well as decent medical care and the invention of medicines and medical tools for other countries with yet another Saudi Arabia/Iran!
You're being sarcastic, right? Please tell me, 'cos if not then why not go and help get rid of Israel, I've got some friends in the IDF who I'm sure would be more than thrilled to meet you in that situation.
(, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 22:27, Reply)
^yep
those Arab countries are swell places to live if you are a woman, or a religious minority, or into alternative political ideas
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Jahled Three shades of black, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 22:31,
Reply)
It would be really nice
if people could show a bit of decorum on here. B3ta is wholly the wrong forum for posturing on such a delicate subject.
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masakatsu best of all the burger meats, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 22:44,
Reply)
I started off rationally responding
to threads that I thought had an edge on it that was a little bit innacurate, that is to say risks swaying the opinion of the public at large with false information.
Then... posts came back like the one above, and I soon learnt that calm reason doesn't work, you have to shout stuff like "ISRAELIS EAT BABIES!"
I don't think b3ta is the right place, either, but when people start playing the champagne socialist, and treating the lives of my friends and comrades as some sort of political soap opera on which they get to draw conclusions based off 5 minutes of news broadcast and an appeal from Christian Aid in the newspaper then I can't just let it pass by, shouting out to the hundreds, if not thousands, of people that will see it, some of whom may even be taken in by it.
Nobody gives a shit about Sri Lanka, no one gives a shit about even Darfur, where are all the mass rallies calling for the end of Mugabe? Yet Israel so much as sneezes and suddenly all hell breaks loose.
My simple answer to what Israel is doing at the moment is that when someone punches you you don't punch them back, you either ignore them or lay into them - bite, scratch, tear, rip, kick, anything - to make sure they don't get back up and do it again. I want peace, but proportionality and temporary cease fire only means that either this drags on or we have a repeat performance and thousands dead again in a couple months time. When someone attacks you you get them down and make sure they can't get back up. Israel ignored them; it didn't work.
Hamas is a despicable organisation, all hamas are dogs and so should be treated like dogs; they misbehaved, they should be punished. If the whole world just stopped listening to the dog, and treated Israel/Palestine like they do the Tamils in Sri Lanka, or even with the relative neglect they afford the zimbabwe crisis, then it'd stop whining and stop bothering us all.
Sorry for the disturbance.
(, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 22:52, Reply)
I feel I should reply to you
[edit: Fuck it, I'll pop it into a Gaz, I really don't want to be involved in a public airing of this debate] :)
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masakatsu best of all the burger meats, Thu 15 Jan 2009, 0:12,
Reply)
Israel is NOT a democracy.... no matter how many times you say it is
read this (written by a Jew BTW)
www.greenleft.org.au/2002/494/28193
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Flash_Bastard, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 22:56,
Reply)
Israel has no codified constitution
neither does Britain, or methinks New Zealand, you don't need one to be a democracy.
Israel doesn't allow people who would now be immigrants to return to towns that their ancestors onced lived in; well, that's immigration control, not restriction on democracy.
Israel restricts those who risk it not being a Jewish state - not true at all, there are parties such as the Communist Party who oppose the concept of a "Jewish State", and in this context Israel being the Jewish State is like France being the French State; so defending that concept would make some sense.
Israeli Arabs have the vote in a PR system and are represented as such, nowhere does he back up his claims or cite sources. He just says "Israel isn't a democracy because it isn't" then lists reasons like the one above about Right of Return which seems to be "Israel isn't a democracy because it doesn't let non-residents vote".
Also, before we go into "Apartheid state" and no democracy in the West Bank, the WB is not part of Israel under Israeli law. The Arabs in East Jerusalem (which is part of Israel under Israeli law) have all the same rights as anyone else.
Israel is a democracy, sorry to ruin your comfortable illusion.
(, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 23:09, Reply)
Could I, as an Athiest, run for head of state on a 'secularisation ticket?
You do not understand the concept of a Democratic state
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Flash_Bastard, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 23:14,
Reply)
You could run for head of state
would you win? Probably not. But you could still try.
Now go try it in Saudi...*
*What I'm saying with this is that Israel may not be perfect, but it's better than the next best competitor. Disproportionate treatment of Palestinians? What about Black September, eh?
(, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 23:20, Reply)
No I couldn't.... you know very little, and what you do know is bullshit
And why mention Saudi? They are not the ones who bulldozed into Palestinian land.... dislodging people who had lived there for generations.... claiming God gave them the right to the land and they are not the ones bombing civilians in Gaza.
Anyway.... I'm bored now and leave you to your imaginings
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Flash_Bastard, Wed 14 Jan 2009, 23:36,
Reply)
imaginings? you could run for head of state in israel. the israeli minister of sport is an arab. you know fuck all about this and yet you talk as if you know everything
(, Fri 16 Jan 2009, 15:33, Reply)