Vote
The outcome of the Lisbon Treaty vote.

No? Just me then??
(BigFatPaulie, Fri 27 Jun 2008, 13:55, 8 replies)

Oh, hello Political content, not seen you for a while
The Lisbon Treaty vote..
I'm glad it failed.
But I'm all pro-EU and stuff. How odd, you might think.
But no, I'm in favour of the EU. I want it to have greater powers, I'd even love a Federal European Union. And, of course, I want a constitution.

But the Treaty of Lisbon.. God, it's awful.

It's too long. Nothing is clear. It's written in the most impenetrable jargon I've ever witnessed, so many people simply won't understand what it does.

And there are too many opt-ins, opt-outs, opt-overs, red lines, national-interest-specific caveats and clauses... it's a mess.
( Thinker, Fri 27 Jun 2008, 14:08, closed)

Nope, me too
"If one member state says 'No' then no treaty.... Except for you Ireland!"

Meanwhile, a bunch of fat cunts spunk £12k a month of my money in Brussels making up fuckwitted laws no-one wants before fucking off for a jolly for the weekend.

The idea of a Federalised Europe isn't necessarily a bad one, but the sheer abuse of "democracy" by the member states and the fact that it's Europe behind bin taxes, road pricing and several other cuntish schemes makes me want no part of it.
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Fri 27 Jun 2008, 14:09, closed)

...
I'm about as pro-European as you can get, but I'm glad that the Irish rejected it. Why? 'Cos it'll make all the referendum cretins go quiet for a while.

@PJM - Bin taxing and road pricing are Good Things.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Fri 27 Jun 2008, 14:18, closed)

@Enzyme
I'd be willing to hear your case for road pricing and bin taxes...
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Fri 27 Jun 2008, 14:43, closed)

...
Simple case of correcting market failure. At present, the costs of these things are public. I can't see the problem with making them private. (Take the noise and fumes of a road, for example: it's not the driver who bears the cost - it's everyone and noone. Charging corrects for that to some extent.)

Roads are a resource, and they're underpriced at the moment - which is why they're congested and in terrible condition. The answer is to charge a realistic price. People'd use them less - but that's no bad thing.

Add to that the fact that much rubbish could be recycled or composted, it makes sense to have an incentive beyond a warm feeling for doing so.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Fri 27 Jun 2008, 14:51, closed)

I'm very against road pricing
Both on the grounds of the disproportionate cost of motoring as a result of excessive taxation (while public transport is starved of funds which are diverted to ID cards for example) and also the fact I regard the system as intrusive. The only reason the roads are in a poor state is because £50bn of motoring taxes returns £10bn of return investment in the road infrastructure by the government. Peter has been robbed to pay Paul.

As for bin taxes, I do agree we need an incentive, but I have grave concerns that certain councils will see it as a cash cow.
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Fri 27 Jun 2008, 15:01, closed)

@PJM
Bin taxes are hardly likely to be a cash cow, since, if they're designed well, they'll serve to reduce the amount people chuck away, and therefore the amount they pay. (Compost and recyclables would be exempt under most systems.)

I don't see why road pricing would be intrusive - and, anyway, even if it is, I don't see it as a problem. There's no right to privacy that I can see (Hell - I don't accept that there're any rights at all...), and certainly none that's non-rebuttable. The fact that people jump into their cars without thinking about it, by the way, is evidence that motoring is too cheap. (Not proof, of course - but evidence. It needs analysis.)
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Fri 27 Jun 2008, 15:27, closed)

@Enzyme
I'll stick my oar in here, road pricing would be justifiable, if there was a viable alternative to jumping in your car. But the fact of the matter is that for many people, using their cars is the only way they can reasonably get to work, or to shops.

If public transport was amazing then discouraging motoring would be okay, but simply charging people more to use their cars without any decent alternative is a recipe for disaster in teh economy.
(Bazongaloid, Fri 27 Jun 2008, 19:21, closed)