did someone say "meat market"?
I wasn't going to reply to this, but that phrase, back on pg. 1, brought back a particularly horrible memory.

Some important relevant facts about me:
- I can drink, but I'm slow, and don't like getting drunk;
- I HATE smoking (in all its forms). There is a permanent Zero Tolerance zone around me. I find it completely inexcusable.

So, on a Friday night during my first year living in Dublin, after a few Guinness at the famous Kiely's of Donnybrook, one of my friends asks the barman something like "where do we go to meet girls, then?". He pointed us at a nightclub up the road, in the basement of a hotel.

We get there, and I'm not impressed with the outside of the place I'm dressed in a polo shirt with no tie. Bouncer says "sorry, dress code, you can't go in." I say "OK, see you guys next we-".

Bouncer interrupts me, says "Hang on, you can come in after all". WTF? We get inside, £5 lighter, and... it's a meat market. Lots of people who have clearly missed the boat, and couldn't make it to the airport. I'm no prize, but did I belong there? Perhaps the bouncers were trying to raise the tone of the place by letting average old me in?

We got some drinks, and I hunkered down, sulking until we could get out of there. The air was blue with cigarette smoke, which only made me grumpier. I hadn't drunk anywhere near enough to forget where I was or what I was surrounded by.

After we left, the other guys told me that some girl was trying to chat me up; sat next to me, tried to make small talk. I have a vague memory of a blond, dressed quite nicely, in fashionable specs (like mine were).

I had blanked her out entirely, because she smoked. Chain-smoked, to be accurate. Oh well... I've never kissed an ashtray, and don't intend to.
( bnt what, me worry?, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 17:32, 36 replies)

You sound like a lovely person....
Oh no. Someone doing something they enjoy. Heaven forbid.
( vix0r was not Matthew on, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 17:47, closed)

hey...
I presume you're a smoker, since you don't see the effect smoking has on everything else. The day they invent a cigarette that doesn't stink up everything in a ten-yard radius, I'll have a rethink, but until then, smokers can stay the fuck away from me. Apart from being an arsehole about smoking - which was the point of my post - I'm a lovely person. I think.
( bnt what, me worry?, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 18:34, closed)

I totally agree with you
Smokers just don't get it.

They don't seem to understand how much it FUCKING STINKS.

Smoking is unique in that it's the only legal activity in which its indulgence directly harms other people around the person doing it.

It would be akin to a drinker pissing on the people around him. I don't mind people who drink, because they don't tend to do that though.

I cheered on 1st July 2007. And I don't have one scrap of sympathy for the smokers who moan about the ban. The fact is that the ban is only necessary because of the selfish attitiudes of the average smoker. If all smokers had always been polite and considerate, by asking all those in the vicinity: "Excuse me - do you mind if I smoke?" - and then heeding the answer - then there would have been no problem. It's only due to the fact that they totally blind themselves to how fucking disgusing it is to other people (or that they simply don't give a shit about other people's senses), that an enforced indoor ban was necessary.
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 18:55, closed)

Smile!
Some of the loveliest people smoke you know. They don’t intentionally pollute public places with the hope of ruining your night out. And we can give up if we want. You never know, the ‘dressed quite nicely’ blond might have been your soulmate. Being sulky and grumpy won’t get you one of those. We all have questionable habits. Oh, and £5 lighter? You can get ‘em for 50p off the market you know? No offence like. I smoke and i’m single ;-)
( Itsallsugar is made up of bits of names, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 19:25, closed)

"might have been your soulmate..."
Yeah - that was kinda what I was implying: the smoking nipped all such possibilities in the bud, so to speak. You had to be there... it was before the smoking ban in Ireland, and the place was not just a meat market, but a SMOKED meat market.

I'm not claiming any kind of moral high ground here, but my abhorrence of smoking is not going to go away. Even when I'm dead, they can plant me head-down with a pear tree on top, because I don't want to end up in a crematorium, going up in smoke.
( bnt what, me worry?, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 19:50, closed)

And...
All football fans are thugs who like fighting

FFS, I know smoking smells, but I have always been considerate- I never smoke in my own house if the company I've got doesn't like it. People are actually individuals, and there will always be a selfish subset who behave like twats.

The research on second hand smoke is oft quoted, but have you ever read any of it that doesn't appear in the fucking Sun? It's actually rather inconclusive as to whether or not it harms people, but what the government spouts to convince people that their 1984 society is correct is swallowed by the masses without question.

And as for alcohol- pissed people have over the years sexually assaulted me, I've been punched in the street, and one bloke grabbed me and tried to force me onto the train tracks- apparently I reminded him of his ex. Funnily enough I've never had my mental state altered to that degree by having a smoke. Despite this, and the fact that I don't get drunk, I never opinionate on how I think people should behave according to the way I live.

/rant.

EDIT: It was more directed at Eurosong.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 19:58, closed)

and...
... you can't be having a go at me, then, since I did point out above that I'm no fan of drunkenness either.

Comparing cigarettes to drink is not a valid comparison. Not everyone drinks enough to get drunk, never mind violent. It's not inevitable. However, each cigarette stinks, regardless of how many you have over an evening. The first one stinks. The last one stinks, except that you might not smell it over your already-smelly clothes and hair.

Still, where was I telling you how you should behave? Anything that has no impact on me is fine by me.
( bnt what, me worry?, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 20:07, closed)

stinky things
Aaaaah, maybe i get what you are saying then....although we all have our prejudices against people, which are often blown out of the water. Mine were short bald men until i was otherwise enlightened! Lol There is no excuse for violence when drunk though @ MM. I would rather be in a room full of happy smokers than shot-swilling gits out for a fight. Even if it means i have to wash my smelly hair and clothes afterwards. Which i do. Hugs.
( Itsallsugar is made up of bits of names, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 20:39, closed)

Smoking
I quite agree with Madam Marlboro- just because a person smokes does not make them a bad person. I gave up 5 years ago due to health reasons, but am still found out with the "dirty" smokers, in the beer garden or the pavement between breaks in a show, as thats where most of the people I tend to gravitate towards are.
As for second hand smoke, really. You sound like an NHS pamphlet, and fancy going to DUBLIN, of all places, and expecting the people in a club to be not smoking just for you- it is (or was) a national pastime over there. Please don't come to one of the bashes, as we will all be outside having a laugh, and passively smoking to our hearts content. Light up another Gauloise, please, MM.
( Duke Of Belmsford has got 99 records, but Jay-Z ain't one, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 20:45, closed)

Smoking
Give it a go, it's fucking ace!
(Stupidiot -[insert humour]-, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 20:54, closed)

pre smoking ban
My mum and dad passed the unfortunate curse of smoking on to me.....twas something we just did! Although, having said that, when approaching 40 and contemplating mortality, the novelty wears off somewhat! I need something else to put in my mouth now! (apologies for crudeness!!) Maybe a young man in an Irish nightclub would help? I was that blond! Not.
( Itsallsugar is made up of bits of names, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 21:06, closed)

Those are non-arguments
Zzz... do I really have to waste my time replying to this non-logic?

1) To Itsallsugar, who said "Some of the loveliest people smoke you know".
You're quite right. I never said otherwise. One of my best friends smokes. And with regards to your comment that the smoker might have been stereoroid's soulmate, that just goes to show that you, also, don't get it. How could he possibly have a soulmate whom he couldn't stand to be close to? (BTW, I don't have to kiss the aforementioned friend, so...!)

2) Madam Marlboro, who said: "All football fans are thugs who like fighting"
Your statement would have held water if I had said that all smokers are inconsiderate. But I didn't. Sure, many smokers ARE considerate and do care about the senses of non-smokers. You might be one of them. If you are, then that's great. But that doesn't change the fact that millions of other smokers are exactly as I described. Last year I was waiting for a bus, and nearby there was a mother and a baby in a pushchair. Along came this man, who went and stood right next to them, and lit his cancer stick without a single word being said. The sight of it repelled me.
With regards to your comments on "second hand smoke" - well that's just completely missing the point, again. Let's just suppose that it was conclusively proven that second-hand smoke did you no harm whatsoever. That still would not change the fact that it smells fouler than anything else I have ever smelled.
Regarding the drunk people who have assaulted you, I'm very sorry to hear that. Those people were arseholes. I'm not in favour of people getting drunk out of their minds. My comparison with alcohol was merely to say that the actual act of drinking alcohol in itself does not do any harm to anyone else. If I sit next to someone drinking one glass of wine (without getting drunk) then it does not affect me. But if I'm next to a smoker, I am physically forced to move away because the stench is so repellant.

3) To Duke Of Belmsford:
Indeed - where did anyone say that smoking makes you a bad person? I certaily didn't say that. This is what I meant by non-logic.

Anyway - here's my take on the situation, as I wrote at the time the indoor ban came in last year:
http://www.eurosong.net/smokingban (no, it's not the horses one).

Sorry for the rant - but as you can see, this issue affects me deeply. My own personal quality of life would be immeasurably improved if tobacco were to be made extinct.
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 21:40, closed)

No, you don't have to reply. Why waste you time?
Wonderful piece. Very beautifully written. I mean that. How old are you? Have you ever smoked? Young and probably no. That is pretty much all i can add to the argument.(ie nothing) and i don't like to argue. You don’t really have to prove a point here. Most smokers have a choice .As do other addicts. Giving up smoking is one of the hardest things to quit though. And some of us actually enjoy it, strange as it may sound. The first ciggie in the morning, with a cup of tea. After a lovely roast dinner. After sex (even if your partner doesn’t partake in such a habit). On the beach on a sunny day. In the car, the smoke blowing out of the window. In a beer garden, drinking a glass of wine. Stood in your close, chatting with a neighbour. Legging it outside for a puff in an interval at the theatre. Your 15 minute break at work. Having a rest from decorating the house. Painting a picture or altering a photo. A cigar and a brandy. It’s just how your mind works....some of us enjoy it. some of us don’t. There is no hope for me!!
( Itsallsugar is made up of bits of names, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 22:18, closed)

PS
Phew to no horses x
( Itsallsugar is made up of bits of names, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 22:19, closed)

Itsallsugar:
I don't see what age would have to do with it. I'm 29, if it matters. And of course I have never partaken of that drug. I would not take one puff if I were offered a million pounds.

Regarding your comments about smokers "enjoying" it - I know how that works. Yes, even though I have never done it, I know the psychology behind it.

Imagine a very hard, uncomfortable pair of shoes. You're walking around all day in them, and your feet are killing you.
Then imagine getting home and finally being able to take off the shoes and relax. Aaahh! Doesn't that feel better! The relief is wonderful!

The "pleasure" that smokers get from indulging their habit is simply the relief that the body feels when it gets its hit of nicotine: the drug to which it is addicted. Because nicotine addiction creates a feeling of being tense and on-edge, then when that dose comes, the feeling subsides. That difference in feeling - going from tense to relaxed - is taken as a positive change, and to a smoker, they feel like it is enjoyment.

Smoking is akin to deliberately wearing uncomfortable shoes, just so you can have the "pleasure" of taking them off and relaxing. The thing that most smokers fail to understand, however, is that non-smokers have that feeling ALL THE TIME. Like if you spend all day on the beach barefoot. The only thing is that they don't notice the difference between the "bad" feeling and the relaxation - because the relaxation is actually the norm!
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Sat 30 Aug 2008, 23:53, closed)

Humanity
Mr Eurosong. I am touched by your reply. How can one so young be so perceptive? Seriously, your poetic words have moved me into feeling a humbling guilt. OK, here’s the deal. I wear the most comfortable shoes as i am of a certain age where width against fashion pervades. My unfortunate smoking habit has become of late a worry.....that and the fact that the health professionals are on my case. Along with my mum, dentist, son, sister, Dating Direct and the rest of the world. Thank you for bringing a smile to my face and a certain sense that i need to slap a patch or two on. Will you go out with me?lol
( Itsallsugar is made up of bits of names, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 0:25, closed)

Don't waste your time itsallsugar
Eurosong swiped it from Allen Carr's 'Easy way to quit smoking'.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 0:53, closed)

OH!
i feel so ashamed!!;-) Thank you for your timely advice though! *sparks up*.
( Itsallsugar is made up of bits of names, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 1:05, closed)

beckyjsbx:
Yes, you're right. That particular example is taken from the Allen Carr book (which I have skimmed through - despite being a non-smoker - because I was curious to see what he wrote which has given this book so much success in turning smokers into non-smokers). However, even before I read the example which he gave, I knew the principle behind it. I have a very mild Coca-Cola addiction, in that if I go without Coke for several days, I feel pangs of desire for it which have more to them than simply the fact that "I like the taste of it". I recognise that it's my body, asking for the caffeine. I also recognise that when I get my Coke, then part of the good feeling I get is because the desire for caffeine has been quenched.

Difference is, however, that I can drink as much Coke as I like and no other person suffers because of it ;)

Itsallsugar, if you're really serious about becoming a non-smoker* then I wish you the very best of luck. I suggest also that you read the Allen Carr book.

* I don't like to say "give up smoking" because that sounds like you're losing something pleasurable. Much better to say "become a non-smoker", because then you can think about all the benefits that non-smokers have over people who smoke.
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 1:46, closed)

"I can drink as much Coke as I like and no other person suffers because of it "
...

reeeeeally?
(jabboy, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 3:05, closed)

Oh, and I'm a smoker, for the record
Always loved the smell of them, even when I didn't smoke. And I understand completely the argument that a cigarette only feels like it's having a positive effect because it's levelling out your cravings. That's why I love it. That's how I'm wired. It's why I'm a miserable, nihilistic, pessimistic bastard 90% of the time, because when good things happen to you it feels so much better. It's why one might, for instance, wait half an hour to urinate for the added wonderful feeling of relief. It's why, despite the fact that I love smoking, I often quit for a few days, just so I can have the cigarette that's like ten orgasms at once with my morning coffee a couple of days down the line.
(jabboy, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 3:13, closed)

jabboy
If that's what tickles your fancy, then that's fine. You live your life as you want to: I'm not telling you any different.

All I would say though - as I would say to all smokers - is to remember to have respect for people who do not smoke, and understand how foul it smells to them: so be careful to ask people around you if you're in public if they mind. Thanks.
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 8:37, closed)

AAARRRRGH
This thread has riled me immensely, and I think there are some fscking stupid arguments being thrown around.

However, I'm the kind of person who can believe in something without inflicting it on everyone around me.

Care to guess which side I'd take if I could be bothered? ;)
(Generator cannot be named for legal reasons, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 10:43, closed)

oh, come on
don't be such a cunt about smoking. seriously.
(firestormviper!!1 approaching god through cigarettes, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 11:52, closed)

firestormviper!!1
Non-smokers would not be "such cunts about smoking" if smokers would also not be such cunts about smoking. Meaning, if they didn't treat the whole world as their ashtray, making me pay taxes to clean up their butts which they throw in the streets etc.

How many smokers do you know who always ask those around them if they mind if they smoke; and who have never once littered in public? If you know any, I'd love to meet them.

I'll stop being a "cunt about smoking" on the day that smokers choose to indulge their addiction on a purely personal basis without negatively affecting other people.
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 13:50, closed)

i was a smoker when the ban came into effect.
despite this, i still thought it was a damn good idea. i'd never smoke near children, in the houses of friends who don't smoke, or anywhere else that it would be inappropriate. i enjoyed smoking and only gave up as i needed an operation, which i was told i could be denied if i smoked.
my sense of smell has improved, my sense of taste is back with a vengeance and i don't cough up a lung every morning.
but do i still miss smoking?
hell, yes.
( Smash Monkey lowering the tone of the whole internet, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 16:48, closed)

I like the Pavlovian thing
I was in a beer garden last night (and the night before that), and the smell of the smoke brought back some great memories of pre-smoking ban.

For me as a non-smoker, my clothes smelling of smoke just was a reminder for me of being in the pub and drinking. Which I really enjoy. And in particular the fact that the room dims as your vision dims with the drink. The smell of a smoky atmosphere, not the acrid smell you get now of smoke blowing through the doorway of a pub, really had a pavlovian effect on me. It was great.

I am really sad that that is gone. You can be sat in a brightly-lit Ikea showroom with a gallon of booze inside of you, and it just feels twee. Not seedy, sordid and secretly delightful like it did in the past. *tingles*

Air pollution, schmair pollution - some people just get off on telling other people what to do.
(cheesehead, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 17:30, closed)

reality check
i am actually feeling a little guilty about smoking now.It seems to provoke such emotions. Cue appointment with someone next week for help.That doesn't mean i won't miss it though.....I believe that you are never free from it though.15/21 years after giving up, my mum and dad still occasionally fancy one.....they don't succumb, but it goes to show how powerful the weed is (as in nicotine lol)x
( Itsallsugar is made up of bits of names, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 19:48, closed)

Smoking vs non-smoking
I used to, now I don't. people doing it doesn't bother me. couldn't care about the ban either way.

But when someone moans about smokers costing the taxpayer money that's when I get pissed off.

that's not a fucking argument
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 20:09, closed)

Indirectly, Vipros
""But when someone moans about smokers costing the taxpayer money that's when I get pissed off.""

So you think that all the butts which are dropped on the pavements just clean themselves up? People have to do this job, and they don't do it for free.

(And yes - before you jump in to point out that tobacco taxes raise more money than it costs to employ street sweepers, I should mention that it's a different area of tax. Sweepers are employed by local councils, who make money from council tax. Homeowners pay council tax whether they smoke or not, and if they do smoke, then none of that tax money goes towards the local clean budget.)
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 20:21, closed)

i have a little portable ashtray
that i take around with me...so as not to cause offence....!
( Itsallsugar is made up of bits of names, Sun 31 Aug 2008, 20:43, closed)

I don't think that...
...if we didn't have cigarettes there would be no need for street sweepers, somehow.

I always try not to drop my maccy-d's bag on the floor, I always try to wait until I see a bin with a stubber plate before I dispose of my cigarette. Some people don't. That's life. Wankers exist. Some of them smoke and don't think about other people who don't, some of them don't smoke and don't seem to realise that we have all been told that we're killing ourselves by a million people already, and are sick of hearing it. Both of these groups of people are wankers, for different reasons. Because I smoke, I find the second group of wankers more annoying than the first, but they are ALL wankers. I'd prefer a ban on wankers to a ban on smoking.

Actually, that's not true, I rather like the smoking ban, as it puts you outside of clubs, where you can actually talk to people rather than rely on your face or your ability to dance (neither of which I have huge confidence in). And it gives you a conversation starter (usually 'does anyone have a lighter/filter/pair of gigantic tits I can shield behind to light my cigarette?'). I think I've pulled at least 3 times this year as a result of being outside smoking. Which rather handily gets us back onto the topic. So can everyone stop being wankers now please?
(jabboy, Mon 1 Sep 2008, 2:05, closed)

Here here jabboy
.
(BarryChuckle, Mon 1 Sep 2008, 9:53, closed)

FFS it's "hear hear" for the millionth time *sighs*
Yes some smokers are assholes just as some drinkers, drivers and people in general are.

I smoke and it annoys me when I am eating and people smoke or when they blow it in my face because regardless of what you are doing you are always going to get people that are considerate and those that aren't.

What they are being inconsiderate about is fairly moot in my opinion.
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Mon 1 Sep 2008, 14:36, closed)

as jabboy says
the streetsweepers are there anyway and a cigarette butt is pretty easy to pick up and not particularly disgusting in comparison to many things that are found on the streets.

I'm not defending or supporting anyone's habits in this, just pointing out that the tax argument isn't a good one to use.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 1 Sep 2008, 15:21, closed)

The Grammar Badger
You are quite correct. It's not only a matter of smoking per se: it's about inconsiderate people.

If you are a considerate smoker, then I commend you. If you never caused anyone else harm then you're one of the good ones.

I also understand your point about inconsiderate drivers, drinkers etc. If a person is just an arsehole in general then they will inflict misery on other people without caring.

The reaon I single out smoking above all of this, however, is that it's SO prevalent in society that every single day I am negatively affected by inconsiderate smokers.

Maybe once in a while I am cut up by a driver who doesn't care about other people on the roads - and yes, I'm there muttering under my breath about what a cunt he is as well as anyone else would be.

However, it is every single day that, while waiting for the bus, several dickhead inconsiderate smokers feel that they have the right to come and stand next to me and light their stink sticks without asking. This forces me to move away. When the waiting area is busy, I'm constantly having to move around to try and find a space in the crowd which is suitably far away from anyone who's smoking.

So - yes, you're right. It's not about smoking per se, it's about arseholes. But the problem I have is that so many smokers don't even know - or care - that they ARE being arseholes when they smoke. It's because they don't understand how revolting their habit is to non-smokers. I just want to make them understand, and to thereafter have consideration. That's all.
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Tue 2 Sep 2008, 9:45, closed)