I dont hate the forces
I never professed any hatred or even dislike for any members of the forces. Any negativity I expressed towards the forces was directed at our benevolent political overlords who disgracefully misuse the thousands of very brave men and women who sign up. You ask not to be condescended to, yet have a very limited grasp of written comprehension (perhaps this stopped your own military career in its tracks, is that why you are so angry?). Also you dont have a monopoly on friends and family in the military and an understanding of the hardships they go through. Life must be awesome in that ivory tower you live in.

I guess the answer to my question is (minus your laughable, impotent vitriol)... I should do it because I really want to and I believe in everything it stands for?

Well I dont really want to and I dont believe in everything the military does. I NEED a job, I would LIKE a job with prospects and a future and quite frankly there are very few of them available right now. The RAF may offer me that, but in return I will have to make massive sacrifices. I'll have to sign up for an extended period, I will have to be away from my friends and family for extended periods of time possibly in dangerous, shitty places, I may have to put my life on the line and I have to put my misgivings and moral concerns about the some of the things the military is involved in to one side, because they are offering me what nobody else is; a proper career. That's why most of the people I know joined, I guess I had better tell them that this is unacceptable, because someone on a very high horse told me so.
(Bam Bam McPenis will change all this when he is fuhrer., Sun 15 Aug 2010, 11:32, 2 replies)

The fact that you are flailing about, making accusations of 'ivory towers' and insults toward me, despite the fact that you know squat about me, shows that you know full well you are wrong.

So I made a comment (heavily) criticising a statement that was in my opinion immature, lacking in any wisdom and deeply hypocritical, and you didn't like it. That's life.

You've since gone on to state that your original statement was directed towards the leaders of the forces, and not the forces themselves. However in your first statement you described the RAF as a 'international criminal war machine'. Seems to me you're back peddling a bit.

That said, having read your explanation of what you actually meant, I'm quite happy to take your word that what you actually meant isn't what you originally wrote.

Contrary to what someone has claimed, I'm not trying to start an argument. And for what it's worth, I hope you do well, and remain safe. Perhaps after a few years in the RAF you'll come to realise that they actually do a great deal of good in the world, and perhaps you'll come to believe in what they stand for.
(Foochan, Sun 15 Aug 2010, 17:39, closed)

You call me a wanker, immature and tell me to fuck off back to my checkout
and I'm the one throwing insults about?

Jesus wept!

If you read the OP properly, which its apparent you still have not done. You will notice I never at any point insult, disparage or take away from the people who make up the armed forces. I am critical of the actions the forces take part in, but not the brave men and women who serve, there is a huge distinction which you have chosen to ignore.

I believe SOME of the actions the British military are involved in are deeply deeply flawed, flawed to the point of criminality, however this is not the fault of the men and women who make up the military and is not a slight against them. I stand by my statement and am not back peddling one bit, the war in Iraq is based on bare faced lies and the war in Afghanistan is an ill judged bloodbath on all sides and I dont want to be a part of either as a British citizen or a serviceman. However if I want the job, the perks, the pay, the pension and the future opportunities a career in the forces could give me, I have to suck it up and I am ok with that, I dont need anyones approval to justify my position or my opinions. If you believe a person cannot hold those views and join the forces without being a hypocrite, so be it, you probably have a point, but I wont lose any sleep on it.

Like I said, I am not joining to be a hero, or because I want to protect free speech, queen, country or any of that cliched bollocks. I am doing it because I need a job.

And just so we are even on the insults front. You are a self richeous twat. Fuck off back on that ridiculously high horse you rode in on.
(Bam Bam McPenis will change all this when he is fuhrer., Mon 16 Aug 2010, 0:37, closed)

look closer
"You call me a wanker, immature and tell me to fuck off back to my checkout"

Well lets face it, anyone joining the forces whilst also branding them an "international criminal war machine" is a wanker.

Anyone who says that it's not possible to work in a job that is rewarding and does good is immature.

And the checkout reference wasn't aimed at you, perhaps you also should read a bit closer.

"If you read the OP properly, which its apparent you still have not done. You will notice I never at any point insult, disparage or take away from the people who make up the armed forces."

Your words: "Even though I have no desire to go all over the world and be a part of the killing of thousands of civilians and the general fucking up of the planet... I really dont want to be a part (however small, safe and in the background a part it may be) of an international criminal war machine"

The RAF does not travel the world killing civilians as you stated. They combat military targets.

You say: " I dont need anyones approval to justify my position or my opinions".

OK, so don't get so upset is someone calls you a wanker for being a hypocrite when you provide your opinion to the public for comment.

Don't bother replying, I have no interest in arguing this further. I think you're a hypocrite, you wont change my mind, and insults wont get you anywhere.
(Foochan, Mon 16 Aug 2010, 10:46, closed)

One last post because I think we have reached the end
I dont care whether you think I am a wanker, twat, dickhead or any of the other things you have called me, I will happily trade insults over the Internet like a retarded 5 year old.

I am however slightly bothered by your continued incorrect insinuations about what I have said. So I am going to break it down nice and simply and type really slowly.

The military for the most part does not decide where it goes, what it does when it gets there or who/what its targets are. The government decides this and in the case of the current wars in the Middle East, the government, not the military, have made in my opinion criminally awful decisions which have directly and indirectly caused horrible bloody results on all sides. Therefore its an 'international criminal war machine' which has left many tens of thousands of innocent civilians and hundreds of young soldiers who deserved better, dead.

This is not a swipe at people in the military as they are pawns and are victims like everybody else who is involved.

I am a total hypocrite for wanting to join this 'international criminal war machine' and wanting becoming a pawn myself for those few pieces of silver. The whole point of the OP was showing the lies I will need to tell to cover that and like I said, if you think I am a wanker for this, then bully for you, lets all be keyboard warriors and call each other names. But I have nothing but respect and admiration for the people who do the job and any suggestion to the contrary is just laziness of thought.
(Bam Bam McPenis will change all this when he is fuhrer., Mon 16 Aug 2010, 23:05, closed)

If you honestly believe that being in the defence force
is being part of the "international criminal war machine", then why the hell would you join?
This sounds like (to me) "I don't want to be any part of killing/harming anyone, but I'll do it because I'll get paid".

*note- I was in the RAAF for some years,as an armourer, and still work on military aircraft and have no such qualms.
(M61A1 CUPID- STUNTS, Mon 16 Aug 2010, 3:23, closed)

Thats about the size of it yeah
Is that really a terrible thing? Would I be the only person there who doesn't believe in the wars?

I have done plenty of jobs where the company which employs me provides nothing positive to anyone and takes advantage of the poorest and weakest in society and I have still sucked it up and got on with it. Beggars cant be choosers.

How many people go to work every day believing that they and their employers are making a positive difference to the world, that the company mission statement isn't a pile of drivel, that they are providing a real service to people?

Do you know the last time I felt I was doing a truly honest days work, was when I was cleaning offices as a student.
(Bam Bam McPenis will change all this when he is fuhrer., Mon 16 Aug 2010, 9:04, closed)