patriotism is pride in your country of birth or residence
Nationalism is the belief that your country would be better served with complete independence and disassocaition from other countries. It is very, very difficult to argue a Nationalist cause without the subtext that different nationalites (therefore the people) are fundamentally different. While it's absolutely not racist, It's not really different from arguing that racial segregation is acceptable as long as it's not discriminatory. Like I said, two equally unpleasant sides of a very mucky coin.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 7 Apr 2010, 17:38, 2 replies)

Out of interest...
Where you stand on Welsh, Scottish and Irish Nationalism? Would you argue that Plaid Cymru, the SNP and Sinn Fein are right wing leaning seperatist organisations?

Also - why are all of the above acceptable...but mention English Nationalism and you may as well shave your head and put on a Union Jack T-shirt?
(Audax Victor, Thu 8 Apr 2010, 6:49, closed)

Sinn Fein's not a prima facie example of a desirable political organisation, is it?
I don't find any of them acceptable insofar as they enact nationalistic, protectionist policies. Do you?

It is something that seems to have eluded a lot of people, though, you're right. I also think the political under-representation of the English is not an acceptable "fair trade" for their economic dominance.
( Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Thu 8 Apr 2010, 8:04, closed)

Plaid?
Well, I'm an Englishman in Wales so probably not the best person to ask. I have ever decreasing respect for the political class as a whole and am torn regarding England having some kind of parliament: Seems logical if the rest of the UK has them, but on the other hand...MORE fucking politicians???

You'd probably disagree with me on my views on nationalism though. I see nothing wrong with it to a point. I used to (not any more) be proverbially proud to be British and proud to be English. I thought Britain and England was the best place in the world. In the same way my mum is the best mum in the world.

It's possible to love your country without hating everyone else. The who nationalist thing has been skewed by events of the 20th Century. It's understandable (and noble) to regard national borders as artifical constructs because that's what they are. On the other hand it's understandable (and noble) to look after your family (and your family writ large?)

Personally though my viewpoint on the whole thing has shifted (and continues to shift) because my utter dissatisfaction with this country in recent years. I feel no loyalty. I feel no patriotism.

On the other hand you'd probably consider me self absorbed and selfish because my one loyalty is to me and mine (which I guess you could retort by saying something like `the human race' - but as I say...)
(Audax Victor, Thu 8 Apr 2010, 8:57, closed)

what you describe is patriotism, not nationalism.
Being proud of your country is one thing. Believing that your country would be better off without all the others (nationalism) is a whole other.

I'm a (mostly) Englishman in Scotland, so I'm in the same position I guess.

A loyalty to you and yours is a perfectly understandable position, the problem becomes when it starts to actively include "to the deliberate detriment of others" ... but that's a whole other kettle of worms. More specifically, in this case, the "Loyalty to you and yours to the active detriment of others" holds "yours" to be "the British" and "the others" to be every other nationality and I think that's a pretty nasty position to hold.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 8 Apr 2010, 9:28, closed)

I agree (though I wish I didn't)
It's incredibly hard to not be 'selfish' and want to look after your own. I know I do it. But as a species, in order to progress we really need to start seeing that our own is everyone.

I hate to sound like a Bolshie Leftie but it is Capitalism (and especally this hard-line ultra-captialism we have now) that makes us act in competetion, when we really don't need to.
(ab1kenobe, Thu 8 Apr 2010, 11:32, closed)

I never said nationalism was right wing
but, yeah, definitely separatist. I find them fairly distasteful to be honest. And I don't think they are acceptable. I think they are "accepted". There is a bit of a difference, IMO. The only real difference between those you mention and the BNP is that they never campaigned on a race card.

But the point you make about SNP (say) vs English Nationalism is a good and important one. Although from my point of view, I'd ask the opposite - why is it that the others are tolerated?
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 8 Apr 2010, 8:33, closed)

thank you
for clearing that up. :)
(ab1kenobe, Thu 8 Apr 2010, 11:23, closed)