I not only witnessed...
...this crime but took an active part in it too.

Many moons ago when I was younger and foolisher I happened across some tearaways giving someone what for in the approved modern fashion. There was some good use of boot- to- head with a fine variation on rib pummelling and just a soupcon of colloquial invective that added real local colour.

Being (A) with some quite large friends, (B) equipped with a skateboard which is essentially a street legal war club and (C) worryingly keen on martial arts I charged in with great and, as it turns out, unwise ferocity.

Thus I did mightily smite them and, with suitable support from my large friends, chase them off. I felt good. I had rescued someone who was, although very drunk, effusive in their thanks and their praise of our good deeds.

The attackers went to the police.

I went to court.

I am still paying them money now.

I really really really hope that one day I will encounter a Judge’s/lawyer’s/Juror’s child being brutally raped so I can ignore it and cross over to the other side.

Bloody lefties.
(Pig_of_Doom, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 15:33, 15 replies)

Hmmm....
You have a legal right to use reasonable force in self-defence; you may even have a right to defend others - but that right is minimal.

From the law's point of view, you committed an assault; the bona fides of the people you assaulted (and, in the process, wronged) are neither here nor there. It seems like the courts found your actions unreasonable; they had no choice but to convict.

It's got nothing to do with bloody lefties; it has everything to do with the state/ crown/ whatever you want to call it having the monopoly of force and - surely rightly - being blind to the details of the person whom you (allegedly, at that point) aggrieved. The tearaways you mentioned had a duty not to attack others, but a violation of that duty does not deprive them of their rights not to be assaulted in turn. Being a scrote doesn't make you outside of the protection of the law.

Maybe you were unlucky; natural sympathy would, I think, be on your side. Maybe you had right on your side when you intervened. That isn't the same as having a right to intervene.

Sorry to bring clarity of thought to the party.



And, yes, I am something of a lefty. Flame me. See what I care.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 15:55, closed)

Hmmm...
You're right of course.

'Tis annoying tho!
(Pig_of_Doom, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 16:07, closed)

I don't understand this one - are you in England?
Enzyme isn't quite right here - you have the right to use reasonable force to defend yourself and others, and "reasonable" is construed very widely with a presumption in the defendant's [i.e. your] favour. You can do almost anything short of deliberately killing them or using a weapon that it was illegal to have in the first place.

[Tony Martin went down because he killed the burglar while the burglar was running away, not because he killed the burglar. Had he killed the burglar while the burglar had been approaching, he'd only have gone down for the illegal gun]

So if the facts are as you outlined above, there is absolutely no way any court in England or Wales should have convicted you.

Was the problem that the court didn't believe your sequence of events? (might be the case if you had previous, the attackers didn't, and the victim was too pissed to speak for you in court). Or did you plead guilty because some a**ehole prosecutor gave you a "hassle and prison, or no hassle and no prison" talk?
(stalinism, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 16:10, closed)

Actually
Anyone has the right to perform a Citizens Arrest if they happen upon a serious crime (I believe the boundary for 'serious' is an offence that could attract a certain sentence - 5 years I think). Someone getting seven bells kicked out of them constitutes Assault/ABH /GBH at the very least. However the law allows you to use a certain amount of force to do this, and this is where the problem arises.

Your average scrote, given a well-deserved smacking if for example caught in your living room wearing a stripy jumper with a big sack marked 'swag', knows now that if they are in worse nick than you when the Rozzers eventually arrive, it's odds on that the Plod will nick you for assault. They're target driven these days, and there is a regrettable tendency to nick first and engage brain later. Sadly the scrotes know very well how to work the system, while your hypothetical burglary victim will not.

While I agree that this isn't by definition a 'lefty' thing, more an example of piss poor political micro-management of what used to be a relatively sensible policing system, the fault lies more with the politically correct morons in the Crown Prosecution Service and Judiciary.

Maybe I'm just getting all old 'n' grumpy, or maybe someone left a copy of the Mail around and it's subliminally affecting me, but my sympathies would be with the OP.

The 'tearaways' would not have got a thumping had they not been doing what they were doing hence tough shit.

Maybe if the story had been told without the last sentence it would be different?

However I will conclude with the advice given me by a fairly senior copper - if someone tries to mug you and ends up on the floor squealing with his gonads in his lungs, piss off sharpish and don't wait for the cops.
(osok Rebel without a clue, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 16:18, closed)

apparently
and bear in mind this is 10 years ago now. They got their version in first so my case had to be cleared off before whether they had committed a crime or not could addressed. In my case they were innocent victims of assault by me and my friends and the original (very drunk) victim never came forward.....
(Pig_of_Doom, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 16:19, closed)

and I....
...apologise unreservedly for the "leftie" comment - bad day at work.
(Pig_of_Doom, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 16:21, closed)

That makes some sense...
...and really sucks - sounds like the "sadly the scrotes know very well how to work the system, while your hypothetical burglary victim will not" definitely applied for you. Sorry if I sounded unsympathetic/disbelieving in the first comment.
(stalinism, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 16:38, closed)

...
I'll defer to the other commentators on this - I'm no legal expert. And I was having a pretty frustrating day, too...
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 19:28, closed)

Well
I'm something of a lefty too but my sympathy is with the storyteller.

In the same circumstances I would have done what he did.
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 14 Feb 2008, 23:48, closed)

Cunts like that, if justice was to be done you should have finished the fucking job.

( idonthaveafunnynickname Drink-Aware? Sure. I'm aware I want another drink., Fri 15 Feb 2008, 2:18, closed)

@legless
I'd like to think that I would, too. The point is, though, that the courts can - thankfully - only go on the evidence that's presented. Sympathy has little to do with it - again, thankfully (which, incidentally, is why it would be a disaster if defendents' criminal records were known to the jury, and why I'm suspicious of victim statements being read out in court. They're simply too partial).
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Fri 15 Feb 2008, 9:27, closed)

That was...
..the problem Enzyme. Other than my opinion the facts were, at best, a gang fight that they lost. Mind you, my last sentence but one was un-warranted - I would do exactly the same again. You can choose to stand up and be counted or you can choose to be a victim!
(Pig_of_Doom, Fri 15 Feb 2008, 12:44, closed)

That really sucks.
You did the right thing, even though you got punished for it. And I'd like to think you'd do the same next time, helping someone in trouble without thinking about the potential consequences for yourself, like you did the first time. That's selfless, and very brave, and we need more people like you.

I've a lot of respect for you! *click*
(Musuko, Fri 15 Feb 2008, 13:14, closed)

Yowza
"I really really really hope that one day I will encounter a Judge’s/lawyer’s/Juror’s child being brutally raped"

Not the sort of quote I'd ever like to have attributed to me :)
(Tomble Underground, overground, Tombling free., Mon 18 Feb 2008, 6:36, closed)

Reasonable Force
In your story you stated that you had a skateboard(street legal war club) and you were keen on martial arts but not mentioned whether the scrotes in question had a weapon.
If you waded in there and belted a few of them with the skateboard and they had no weapons then perhaps this is why the verdict was reached? Using a club against someone without a weapon is surely above reasonable force?
I'm also a keen martial artist and have always been told to be very careful about getting into fights and letting the other party know that i do a martial art.

No help but perhaps something to reflect on?
(Fuckarma was masturbating into your handbag, Mon 18 Feb 2008, 15:51, closed)