So are we now going to talk about the deaths religion causes and then say something like, Hitler was an atheist?
If you truly believe you can only gain a sense of morals from religion, then I sort of feel sorry for you.
( mike woz ere 7442200 & 7696970 getter, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 2:10, archived)

maybe she means religion in terms that
all morality is essentially made up, and that IS religion? maybe.
( Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 2:14, archived)

Hitler was a neo-pagan,
but moving on. People have their own consciences, and there are social constructs and acceptable codes of behaviour etc.. But how do we evaluate these things? We know that under Hitler (for instance) ordinary people did all sorts of things. We know that in some Islamic countries they cut your head off for being gay, and that in various places female circumcision occurs. These are just a couple of examples of moral problems that even the "new atheists" of today would like some kind of objective answer.

Various religions have got a lot of things wrong at different times, I'll admit, but we can't expect them to change for no reason. If we want to be able to say that such-and-such is right or wrong, we need a reason. Conscience and social custom just doesn't cut it, despite what the subjectivists like to pretend. And science doesn't help us, because it is impartial and makes no value judgments. Utilitarianism as per John Stuart Mill was a good effort but it has loose ends all over the place. The only thing that can tie them up as I see it, is the Will of God. It's only because God made the Universe for a reason and not arbitrarily or by accident that there can be any sense of what anyone "ought" to do.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 2:20, archived)

How do you explain my morals then, in the absence of a belief in God?
Or has he given them me regardless of whether I believe in him or not?
( mike woz ere 7442200 & 7696970 getter, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 2:23, archived)

Conscience and social custom, probably.
I doubt you derived them logically from scientific knowledge, at any rate.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 2:30, archived)

Could I not have derived them from personal experience?
A base example such as "If I touch fire, it hurts me. It must hurt others too and I would not want to subject someone to the pain I felt."
( mike woz ere 7442200 & 7696970 getter, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 2:45, archived)

why wouldn't you want to subject others to pain?
why does what you want decide what ought to be?
where does morality come into it? I'll tell you what does come into it. Empathy and sympathy, or compassion if you will. This is natural, but there's no logic in it.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 2:50, archived)