Sowe should bomb them, steal all their oil and then whinge when they bomb us in return?
If our foreign policy was a lot more ethical, the random nutters who do this would not have the support network that they do, they would not have the grudging acceptance that they do from others.
Islam is a peaceful religion and it's dodgy at best to say a culture you don't understand is wrong.
Do you really think that if Arabic countries were treated better by the West quite so many of the normal people living their would have tacit agreement with the terrorists?
Feel free to look at the IRA and the mixed feelings of normal Irish citizens to their actions and the difference in attitude towards them when they started punishment beatings and bombing civilians etc.
(If our foreign policy was a lot more ethical, the random nutters who do this would not have the support network that they do, they would not have the grudging acceptance that they do from others.
Islam is a peaceful religion and it's dodgy at best to say a culture you don't understand is wrong.
Do you really think that if Arabic countries were treated better by the West quite so many of the normal people living their would have tacit agreement with the terrorists?
Feel free to look at the IRA and the mixed feelings of normal Irish citizens to their actions and the difference in attitude towards them when they started punishment beatings and bombing civilians etc.
Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:35,
archived)
Yeah...but remember all the shit that the British put the Irish through. It took until the 70's to get one-man-one-vote in Northern Ireland, before then if you owned a house you got a vote, if you owned lots of houses you got lots of votes, and if you didn't you got no votes. This meant that the rich and powerful protestants got all the votes, and the poor catholics had hardly any!
Then there is collusion, ridiculous prejudice etc. Sure the IRA are deplorable, but don't forget the British massacared people at football matches, and Winston Churchill believed the Irish were sub human.
(Then there is collusion, ridiculous prejudice etc. Sure the IRA are deplorable, but don't forget the British massacared people at football matches, and Winston Churchill believed the Irish were sub human.
Watney Heckbulb uhnnnnnnnn has a new blog: www.skepticcanary.com,
Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:42,
archived)
TrueI wasn't denying that. But do you think any of it would have happened if we hadn't treated Ireland like that?
If we'd declared actual war and bombed their cities, do you think the terrorism and the support for terrorism from the populace would have gone up or down?
The whole point of the animation at the start of this thread was that two wrongs do not make a right. Only a fucking idiot would fail to see that.
(If we'd declared actual war and bombed their cities, do you think the terrorism and the support for terrorism from the populace would have gone up or down?
The whole point of the animation at the start of this thread was that two wrongs do not make a right. Only a fucking idiot would fail to see that.
Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:45,
archived)
"Islam is a peaceful religion..."Christ, the number of times I've heard people say that.
By the time Mohammed died, there existed an Islamic empire that covered most of North Africa and the Middle East. This wasn't achieved by peaceful missionary activity!
I'm certainly NOT saying that ALL Muslims want to take over the world, but to merely parrot the liberal mantra "Islam is a peaceful religion" doesn't achieve anything.
I agree Western foreign policy leaves a very great deal to be desired. This doesn't mean you have to side with the terrorists - 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' is the mistake Bush (and other US leaders) have repeatedly made.
And it's presumptuous of you to say I don't 'understand' a culture. I understand it well enough to find many aspects of it repulsive.
(By the time Mohammed died, there existed an Islamic empire that covered most of North Africa and the Middle East. This wasn't achieved by peaceful missionary activity!
I'm certainly NOT saying that ALL Muslims want to take over the world, but to merely parrot the liberal mantra "Islam is a peaceful religion" doesn't achieve anything.
I agree Western foreign policy leaves a very great deal to be desired. This doesn't mean you have to side with the terrorists - 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' is the mistake Bush (and other US leaders) have repeatedly made.
And it's presumptuous of you to say I don't 'understand' a culture. I understand it well enough to find many aspects of it repulsive.
Mr. Tea 'ulmmm'/'mmneurgh',
Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:45,
archived)
Liberal mantra?Is that the best refute you can come up with?
Go on then, explain why exactly Islam is not a peaceful religion....
While you're at it, why not point out exacty which bit of my post said I was 'siding with the terrorists'.
Just because people do terrible things in the name of a religion, that does not mean the religion is evil. And saying 'well they're a bit nastier than us so there's no need for us to try to be nicer because we're still slightly better than them' is hardly the zenith of logical debate.
If the best you can manage is 'either you're with us or against us' and can't see any possible shades of grey in this big, complex world of ours then just go back to reading your Rush Limbaugh book.
(Go on then, explain why exactly Islam is not a peaceful religion....
While you're at it, why not point out exacty which bit of my post said I was 'siding with the terrorists'.
Just because people do terrible things in the name of a religion, that does not mean the religion is evil. And saying 'well they're a bit nastier than us so there's no need for us to try to be nicer because we're still slightly better than them' is hardly the zenith of logical debate.
If the best you can manage is 'either you're with us or against us' and can't see any possible shades of grey in this big, complex world of ours then just go back to reading your Rush Limbaugh book.
Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:54,
archived)
The 'with us or with them' attitude is exactly what I'm trying to refute.It seems to me that a lot of Western liberals (and I consider myself a liberal in most important senses) have rushed to defend Islam in general, ignoring some of the more unsavoury points of *some* Islamic cultures, simply because they're now the sworn enemy of the American establishment. My own attitude is that no cultures a perfect, but that it's wrong to suggest that they're all 'as good as each other'.
As far as I am aware, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the Qu'ran says that every true Muslim (male) should "be able to ride a horse and fight with a bow and a sword" - something like that, anyway. I've already mentioned the early military success of the culture. Go to Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen and much of the Arabian peninsular and all the men carry guns. I'm certainly not claiming Christianity or any other religion (OK, maybe Buddhism) is any more inherently peaceful.
(As far as I am aware, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the Qu'ran says that every true Muslim (male) should "be able to ride a horse and fight with a bow and a sword" - something like that, anyway. I've already mentioned the early military success of the culture. Go to Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen and much of the Arabian peninsular and all the men carry guns. I'm certainly not claiming Christianity or any other religion (OK, maybe Buddhism) is any more inherently peaceful.
Mr. Tea 'ulmmm'/'mmneurgh',
Thu 7 Jul 2005, 17:01,
archived)
Damn rightOnward Christian soldiers.
When you are given the choice of supporting either someone with no respect for any aspect of you rculture, the lives of your family, or your way of life, or someone who's lived down the street and is prepared to blow himself up for his beliefs I imagine it's quite easy to go for the terrorist.
Whatever is said I find it hard to argue with someone who's blown himself up for his beliefs. I think if more politicians were this way inclined the world would be a better place.
(,
Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:57,
archived)
When you are given the choice of supporting either someone with no respect for any aspect of you rculture, the lives of your family, or your way of life, or someone who's lived down the street and is prepared to blow himself up for his beliefs I imagine it's quite easy to go for the terrorist.
Whatever is said I find it hard to argue with someone who's blown himself up for his beliefs. I think if more politicians were this way inclined the world would be a better place.
i thinkthey got a burst of support within the republic after the british government gave materials and support to the loyalist bombings of dublin in the 70s, which the british government still refuses to answer any questions on, and the current irish government tries hard not to push too hard, since it's bad for trade. but the punishment beatings were there from the early days - as soon as any corrupt bastard operating outside the law gets a taste for power, you're always going to have abuses.
the biggest waning in their support has been time - at the end of the day, I'm 2 generations away from the black and tans raping women and torching my home city. My parents would have missed it, but received anger from their parents, who would have been around at the time. Consequently, our generation has been far more objective, and is even further from the original goals of the post-partition IRA. Let's face it, neither the Republic nor the UK really want a small bit of land with a higher concentration of hate, violence and racism than most anywhere else...
(the biggest waning in their support has been time - at the end of the day, I'm 2 generations away from the black and tans raping women and torching my home city. My parents would have missed it, but received anger from their parents, who would have been around at the time. Consequently, our generation has been far more objective, and is even further from the original goals of the post-partition IRA. Let's face it, neither the Republic nor the UK really want a small bit of land with a higher concentration of hate, violence and racism than most anywhere else...
WhoElse I'm what Willis was talking about,
Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:48,
archived)
ExactlyYou're removed from it, the attrocities aren't still happening, you're much less likely to condone the IRA planting a bomb in a London Underground station.
Be nice to each other, being nasty just pisses people off.
(Be nice to each other, being nasty just pisses people off.
Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:57,
archived)