this is where it starts to fall down a bit
I would be reluctant to allow my child to take hormones before they'd reached an age (adulthood) where they could make rational, informed decisions for themselves. As you say, it is a brutal process that often has a deleterious effect on the body and it's not one that I would want to see my child undergo unnecessarily. I don't consider their potential future participation in affirmed gender sports to be an important enough issue to risk their health and wellbeing
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 8:58, Reply)
Quite so.
This was the crucial point - and will be again - in Bell v Tavistock. The long-term harm of things like puberty-blockers is unknown, and detransition rates are - at the lowest - non-trival. It's therefore not clear that informed consent from the child is possible. Neither is it wholly obvious that the decision could be made in the child's best interests by the parents.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 9:24,
Reply)
not sure you'd agree with this but
there seems to be some reluctance to acknowledge that gender dysmorphia might be a mental illness, perhaps because mental illness carries a stigma which they dont want to burden their cause with, perhaps because homosexuality was once (and still is sometimes) characterised as a mental illness by people who oppose it.
But this isnt about adults wanting to have sex with other consenting adults. This is about adults imposing potentially dangerous and irreversible medical interventions on children to make themselves feel better. That is not the same and it needs to be discussed.
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 10:37, Reply)
Dysphoria is not something about which I know anything, so I'll tread carefully here.
Lots of people might have gender dysphoria, insofar as that they are made unhappy by gendered expectations. The solution to that, as far as I can see, is to remove the expectations - gender abolitionism - rather than anything else.
There are people who are deeply unhappy because of their (sexed) body. I have no idea what's going on there, or what the best solution would be. It may be that there's no good solution, and the best solution is simply the least-bad one. Again, no clue. But none of that would mean that one is "really" a member of the oppisite sex.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 10:53,
Reply)
I think the case could be made to allow trans athletes to compete as a separate category in the Paralympics for example
I'm not sure it's what they want exactly but I think it might be a more appropriate response to their condition
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 11:10, Reply)
beside the fact that there aren't categories at the paralympics for most mental illness, as much as I'd like to see the 800m for depressives, I think you're painting with too broad a brush
there's plenty of odd things that people do that you could classify as mental illness, but I reckon the term should be reserved for things that are harmful or debilitating and not just different. Being obsessed with wanting to fuck kids is a mental illness because it's harmful to them, while wanting to fuck fat black women isn't because it doesn't harm anyone. If it did it'd be a mental illness. Why do people want to fuck kids, black women, or think they should be a woman? Because we have messy complicated brains in a messy complicated society.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 4:53,
Reply)
The comparison to paedophila is not valid and you should withdraw it
For whatever reason, people proposing hormone treatment for kids believe they are acting in the child's best interest. Tarring them with the nonce brush is just as ridiculous and unhelpful as the accusations of misogyny below.
(, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 6:38, Reply)
withdraw it?
what do you think this is, parliament? Besides, paedophilic disorder is a recognised mental health disorder on the DSM-5, while as far as I know, being obsessed with big black women isn't. It's a fine, rich example to illustrate my point as to why we categorise some things as mental health disorders and others not, based around harm. I don't think wanting to be a chick is a mental health disorder as you and enzyme seem to want to characterise it. Paralympics, indeed. Mine is merely crude, while its you two that are entertaining bullshit notions that we should have left behind in the 50s, like sterilising turing just for being a bender
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 9:17,
Reply)
least I'm not a cunt who thinks transpeople should compete in the paralympics
you're too earnest and slow to have meant it as a joke
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 11:13,
Reply)
Agree that tarring with the nonce brush is shit and unhelpful
…but I’m dubious about the “best interest” thing.
The reason for this is that there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that these two groups (im focusing on male people here for the moment):
1: male children who are gender non-conforming and claim to be girls
2: middle aged males who come out as trans later in life
are entirely different demographics - group 1, left untreated, does not grow into group 2.
There are all manner of possible reasons for group 1, not least environmental factors and the fact that if a small human boy is taught a differing definition of “girl” that allows male children to be one, and that seems to summarise his personality, then *of course* some boys will genuinely believe they’re girls, it’s just that they’re basing that identity on the idea that “girl” *is* an identity and not a neutral descriptor. Factor in the lovebombing that trans kids receive from organisations who treat “trans” as a brilliant thing to be, and the current cultural tendency to see trans kids as “special” and add in that to a small child “we can change you into the girl you are meant to be” has more relevance as a strategy to be safe from bullying than as anything about future life and it’s easy to see that there is a credible possibility that maybe these are kids being told bullshit by adults
However, older middle aged transitioners, in order to support their claims to literally be women, to literally have an intrinsic sense of gender that should overwrite sex for them, and for everyone else, *need* for there to be a group of young people they can point to as evidence that they have *always* been women.
And as the Tavistock whistleblowers are saying, there’s a LOT of trans activists who have convinced small children with homophobic parents that it’s OK, their little gay kid isn’t gay, they are just in the wrong body and since we got them early, dosing them full of hormones will be best
(, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 10:09, Reply)
"tarring with nonce brush"?, not you too.?
it seems to be a recurring theme when arguing with thick people that they have difficulty in comprehending that comparative analogies are often limited in scope to single qualities, rather than general associations, in this case what constitutes mental illness and what doesn't.
If I'd meant that transpeople are like paedophiles I would have said it. still, I'll know next time im dealing with people who say "duh, he said 'paedophile'. he done think they're all paedophiles". I'll leave you all to it
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 11:54,
Reply)
I know what you meant
And I can see the analogy that you’re making, and that you aren’t drawing a moral equivalence or anything like that. The point is though that in making a persuasive argument, it’s best to avoid giving people something to grasp to in lieu of a point, and arguing with trans activists already involves dealing with bad faith and obfuscation, so for me, if the point can be made without a paedophile analogy, so much the better.
As you point out - the opponents in this debate are people who have been convinced that chemical sterilisation of kids is a great idea, and who have somehow never realised that men are physically stronger and faster than women,. Thick people are the opponents
(, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 13:52, Reply)
well, if I can't use a good paedo analogy in B3ta, where else?
but I appreciate the explanation
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 16:05,
Reply)