What about the rights of women and girls
who have a right to dignity and safety?
Yes, be who you want, just like everyone else, but please don't ask for the right to make others uncomfortable because of that
Do you believe male-sexed people have a right to undress and shower in communal changing rooms with teenage girls?
How does a girl in a changing room know that someone who enters in possession of a dick is or is not an interloper?
I don't give a flying one what people want to be or who they want to fuck, but I don't like it when it starts it starts to interfere with people's lives who did not want for nor ask for the consequences of those life choices. It seems to me that women are the ones being marginalised and forgotten here.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:27, Reply)
Trans people deserve not to be treated as sex criminals.
I believe that gay men and boys are entitled to change in the same room as straight men and boys, and similarly for gay women in amongst straight women. We generally don't consider this to be an issue, because most of us have stopped thinking that being gay makes you a pervert or sex pest.
That's my own answer.
Now, I'll quote a long bit by a trans activist group, because I always want to use their own words to argue for their rights:
If we legislate to police gender in toilets, then how and at what point do we decide who is and isn’t a woman? Will all facilities require a gender checking attendant? Do tall, broad or deeper-voiced women face being challenged for ID to prove their gender? Will women with short hair who dress in traditionally-male clothing be asked to prove their sex? Will a woman be forced to show a stranger their body to pass a gender test? What, precisely, would happen if a woman were judged, in one way or another, to be a man? Will she be arrested or fined or removed from the premises? Will all women need to carry a mandatory ‘woman certificate’ or will only trans women be forced to carry proof that they have a GRC? None of this sounds remotely progressive and none of it sounds like the empowerment of women.
(mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/safety-and-dignity/)
There's also the legal aspect of deny spaces to trans people: Here's an article by an Oxford lecturer about trans exclusion and the law:
ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/gym-use-and-changing-rooms-the-illegality-and-chilling-effect-of-transgender-segregation/
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:52,
Reply)
You didn't answer the question
How does a girl in a changing room know that someone who enters who has a dick is or is not an interloper? Where is their comfort and dignity in those situations?
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:57, Reply)
She doesn't know, of course.
How does she know that a person in that same space who has a vagina isn't a pervert or predator or whatever?
Assuming that trans people are sex pests is not helpful, and we should get over it - in just the same way we long ago got over thinking that gay people might be sex pests.
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:07,
Reply)
You are royally missing the point here
Put yourself in the position of that girl.
Into the changing room wanders a guy with his dick out. What is she to think in that moment? Oh fuck, here's a bloke who's wandered in to sexually assail us, or here's a trans-person of no threat whatsoever?
In that moment you are exposing that girl to threat and harm, and my point is, why would you intentionally expose a girl to harm?
Your argument is absolute bollocks, by the way, and you know it. The conclusion of your argument is that any bloke should be allowed in women and girl's safe spaces, and fuck the consequences.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:11, Reply)
But you'd allow lesbians in the female dressing room, right?
Your argument seems to be based on the believe that everyone with a cock is out to rape women.
(
Tusk knows where you live, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:35,
Reply)
Utterly wrong
What I suggested is that neither you nor I nor anyone else can tell me how a girl in that situation would react if someone walked in with their dick out. The point is what are they to think? In their safe space, here's a guy with his dick out. Do they think - here's someone up to no good, or here's someone of no harm whatsoever? The conclusion to your line of thinking would be - naked men in girls and women's safe spaces? Yeah, fuck it, can't see anything wrong with that. Where is the consideration for the wishes, comfort and dignity of the girls and women here? Girls and women see naked women in their spaces all the time, but not naked men, and it seems to me that you don't have a problem with their shock, comfort and dignity being compromised
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:52, Reply)
Some people are uncomfortable with public nudity altogether, I don't think that's healthy.
Meanwhile in Scandinavia, people are outraged when people enter unisex nude spaces without being fully nude.
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brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:47,
Reply)
If you took 20 random guys, and let each one in the women's changing room
you'd be unlikely to get any rapists, but I'd put money on at least 1 of them being weird and pervy and making all the women feel really uncomfortable in a way they hardly ever get with other women. probably more.
And you'll also get what I call the priest-effect. I don't think being a priest makes you paedo, but I reckon nonces seek out the priesthood because it gives them access to young boys.
Transwoman won't make you a sex offender or rapist, but if transwomen, like priests, get easy access to women when they're segregated and vulnerable, you will get some fuckers that become transwomen because it offers this. Like there's some in the US who think their jail time will be easier as trans in a womens prison (along with some who turned into rapists). And the BMA's proposal I had a quick look at is to make it even easier, basically signing a stat dec to change gender rather have a psyche assessment
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:52,
Reply)
You too are missing my point
It's about the comfort and dignity of the women and girls. They see naked women in their safe spaces all the time, but not naked men.Are you really suggesting here that people with dicks should be allowed in their safe spaces and fuck their wishes, comfort and dignity here? I'm dismayed at the encroachment on women's safe spaces
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:55, Reply)
no I got that, and agree
I was just pointing out that there are more common lesser behavioural issues than rape in their "so you think all transwomen are rapists"
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:08,
Reply)
Would you be comfortable with and adult (who appears to be) male walking around with their cock out infront of your adolescent daughter in the swimming pool changing rooms?
Would their reassurance that they identify as female be enough to alleviate your concern?
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:09, Reply)
do they have a boner?
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:10,
Reply)
then I'm out
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:28,
Reply)
as a serious point, sexual and family violence and harassment is strongly gendered
it's mostly male on female violence. this is the reason why you see lots of women's refuges for family violence, but very few for men.
So are you positing that when a man identifies as a woman, i.e. a male to female transgender, that choice changes their risk of committing gendered violence?
it's an interesting debate as it cuts to the heart of the difference between identity and reality. Presumably other gendered risks don't change with identity, like the higher risk women have of getting multiple sclerosis. Even though there have been some high publicity rapes in womens prison committed by male to female transgender, I'd doubt whether there enough data to answer this definitively. And as barst said, it's interesting that you're willing to dismiss the right of women to identify as different from trans people, while supporting the rights of transpeople to identify as different from their birth sex
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:24,
Reply)