"and in what circumstances might you doubt a male person’s claim to be a woman?'
This is the crux of the whole issue here, in my opinion. It's a paradox, really. How do you practice exclusion in a movement/culture that is (allegedly) so fundamentally based around inclusion?
Is the individual below allowed to identify as a woman? By identifying as a woman, does she get the same freedoms as a woman who complies more readily to the accepted image of what a 'woman' looks like? Who decides?
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:15, Reply)
Yep. And the answer is
“You don’t - you just evade the idea that there’s any issues”. Which ultimately means that trans activism adopts a “not all men are like this” approach, because it relies on the idea that safeguarding against the risks male people pose to female people becomes absolutely unnecessary when the male person says “I am a woman”, and always falls back on “but most males aren’t rapists!”. I know that I’m not a rapist or an abuser I also recognise that safeguarding at my work, where I sup-pet vulnerable people, has to recognise the potential that I could be. And it isn’t reasonable that a heterosexual male can be considered to be less of a risk than I am on the basis of having dysphoria; dysphoria doesn’t stop some trans men from being celebrated as “the man who gave birth”, so why should dysphoria impact other sex-based behaviour?
And that’s why it’s important that communication is clear - and why it’s important to not say “trans women are women” unless you really do believe these two things:
1: some male people have an inner essence that enables them to know that they have what amounts to a spirit that makes them a member of the opposite sex
2. No male people place themselves in this group, either accidentally, due to a flawed understanding of themselves or mental distress, or deliberately - based on being a male person who wants access to female spaces
I think that most reasonable people don’t believe either of those things - they actually believe the thing that is true - that some male people find being male distressing, and to help, they live as close to their idea of the opposite sex as is feasible. When activism goes beyond that, it will encounter people saying “no”
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:22, Reply)
And with your image -
It’s important to treat it head on, not as a facetious comment but as a genuine one.
If that man can’t be considered a woman, as he appears now, why not? Why is it ludicrous? There is no answer to this that trans activism has that doesn’t impose a level of stereotypical expectations of women onto the group “women”.
I can say “this man can not be a woman because he is not female”.
Trans activism can only say “this man probably isn’t a woman because he isn’t presenting as I expect women to present”
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:32, Reply)
Anybody who treats it as facetious is ignoring the bigger question.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:36, Reply)
Yes.
Here’s an example of something else trans activism is ill equipped to deal with.
If I said
“I am a woman. I’m here for my gender recognition certificate, I have lived according to this gender identity for my entire life. Here’s some examples:
1: I am a keen footballer, I play football every week and enjoy it
2: I keep my hair short, and occasionally have some facial hair
3: I don’t like wearing skirts and dresses - I tend to wear jeans and t-shirts
4: I’m attracted to women, and all my partners have been women
5: I’m physically strong, and work as a labourer
6. I don’t feel the need to physically transition - I am comfortable with my body and the fact that my body was assigned male at birth no longer causes me distress, as I’m confident that whatever my body looks like, I am a woman”
Then on what basis would any trans activist say that I wasn’t a woman?
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:44, Reply)
No,
that is the argument as to why they are not female.
It is a very valid argument for why they are not female, but it is not a good argument as to why they are not a woman.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:52,
Reply)
You are biologically male.
But come stay the night and I'll make you my woman.
Female - Sex
Woman - Gender
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:36, Reply)
Sewomantics.
The trans activist in my imagination isn't as bogged down by technical/academic terminology as the trans activist in your imagination.
(
brb Monkhouse Stampede, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:54,
Reply)
I suspect that many trans activists haven't given the subject *nearly* as much consideration as the good folk here have given it over tbe past few days.
The overwhelming post-social media trend seems to be people campaigning for things that they like the sound of, without actually considering what the outcome of those campaigns might be.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:10, Reply)
It's okay though because there's a concern troll for every one of them.
(
brb Monkhouse Stampede, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:52,
Reply)
Neat trick putting that alamy tag on a selfie.
(
FeralCatMan Unusual disease collector., Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:27,
Reply)
You're not far off, to be fair!
Reasonably accurate besides the fact that I don't have such large bags under my eyes, I don't drink booze and I don't identify as a woman. I'll give you the rest, though.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:58, Reply)