are you one of thoese people
who wants tobacco banned? Shops sell it and profit from it and it can cause nasty diseases and death, but currently the choice is there for the consumer to purchase it. They may well be vulnerable and addicted to it. Should there be laws preventing it being offered?

So where is the line drawn? How much autonomy should people be given?

It is possible to function without a bank account. It isn't easy, but it's perfectly possible and many people do it.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 24 Dec 2008, 9:36, 2 replies)

Not
at all. I don't advocate the banning of anything.

...but if the remit of the government is that anything harmful is banned (as seems to be becoming the case with smoking), then fractional reserve banking must also be covered by the same cloak.

I'm actually extremely libertarian in my views.

Banks should be left to their own devices, however, that said, they should not be able to operate in a cartel. If they operate on their own devices, the market will dictate that they act in a more humanitarian way.

The banks should be regulated so that they are unable to act as a cartel.
(dchurch bah, Wed 24 Dec 2008, 10:21, closed)

But they are
And they haven't been. There's no cartel here.

And faith in the market relies on consumers who have the time, inclination, information (and ability to process that information) to know the score and make wise decisions. They lack all of these on the whole.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 24 Dec 2008, 10:33, closed)

I don't believe
that there isn't a cartel operating in this instance. I strongly believe that we have a banking cartel.

The fact that those virtues are lacking is evidence even more so that the banks have the upper hand, and therefore the responsibility that goes with it. To exploit people who do not possess the time, etc... to make the informed decisions that they should/could have is, by definition immoral (morals being defined as having a measure of beneficence - i.e. they have to make a decision that is best for their client).
(dchurch bah, Wed 24 Dec 2008, 10:39, closed)

That's a very big claim
I simply don't see why proper behaviour has to imply beneficence.

Nor do I see why a bank's first responsibility should be to the client. Legally, the first responsibility is to the shareholders. Morally, too, there's an argument that it ought to be shareholders who are the first concern.

Why on Earth should a company - or individual - be forced to act charitably? In idividuals, that seems supererogatory. In companies, it might well be downright wrong.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 24 Dec 2008, 10:44, closed)

I'm not
asking them to act charitably, but I do ask that they act morally.

If banks HAD acted in a more moralistic way, then they may not have lent money to those than can not afford to pay it back, and in this instance, they may well be still providing profits to their shareholders.

By acting the way they have, you could claim that they have acted in a way that is NOT beneficial to their shareholders and have not upheld that responsibility.

I'm pretty sure a shareholder in a bank does not want that bank to be in a position where it expects the taxpayer to bail them out of certain bankrupcy.
(dchurch bah, Wed 24 Dec 2008, 10:56, closed)

Incidently
I do operate without a bank account. It's far more difficult to do than you would imagine. In many respects you are actually punished for choosing not to have a bank account.

My girlfriend is penalised because of my choice as well - she is not allowed a debit card on her bank account because of my lack of credit history, despite the fact that I do very well thank you very much and hence the reason for not ever needing credit. We are financially linked somehow (apparently) according to one of those private firms who somehow have access to records of my financial dealings.
(dchurch bah, Wed 24 Dec 2008, 10:25, closed)

You can be de-linked.
I expect you know this since you are into this stuff, but there is no reason for her to be liable for your credit history if you do not share debts. It's a matter of asking for the record to be changed.

My boyfriend also has no bank account. He has poor credit history and his earnings are way below the poverty line. I am all too aware of the trade off between eating/heating.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 24 Dec 2008, 10:45, closed)

It's
(again) extremely difficult to be de-linked by all three, it's not simply a matter of 'asking' trust me. Indeed, I actually had to sue one of the bigger 2 before I could get them to agree to my abide by my legal right NOT to have my personal information given out in an automated search.

That, in fact, is another abuse of the system that they themselves set up.
(dchurch bah, Wed 24 Dec 2008, 10:53, closed)