On the subject of vegetarians....
Now vegetarians do piss me off a little bit. If you're veggie because you don't like the taste of meat then fair enough, it's your choice what you put in your mouth. However, if you're veggie because of any slight animal welfare or environmental inclination and you continue to eat eggs and dairy products then you are being monumentally hypocritical.

In order to get eggs, even happy chicken free range ones, you only need lady hens. The male hens, even in the happy chicken free range farms, are all slaughtered at a few days old.

In order to get milk, you need a cow that has just had a calf. Now, if the cow keeps the calf, well, there won't be much milk left for the farmer to sell. So bye bye calf, off you go for veal.

Any sort of animal product is going to lead to exploitation and death and massive environmental impact in some way, so all these vegetarians who claim to be doing their bit for animals and who think they are so much holier than the meat eaters, are either knowingly or otherwise deluding themselves.

For a bit of perspective on my opinions, I am a vegan.
And not because I don't think that animal flesh doesn't taste delicious, because it does (especially bacon....).
And not because I think that we aren't 'designed' to eat animals, because we are.
And also not because I think it is a crime against nature for a human to kill another animal to eat. I mean ffs in that case get rid of all predators! I think it is easy to forget we are part of the food chain, and animals in our own right.

No, my issue with eating animals and animal products lies in how far removed modern livestock farming methods are from nature; a farmed animal will suffer so much distress throughout its life from being bred to exaggerate a particular feature (fancy carrying round 25kg of milk in your udders all day?) and having their natural instincts stifled (fancy being a pig in a cage unable to even turn round?). Also, what do you think happens to all the waste? There are lakes of slurry from livestock farms which have the potential to sterilize the water courses around them, with an enormous impact on the ecosystem.

And even if you had no interest in animals or their welfare, the human cost of intensive livestock farming is ridiculous. The majority of farms are owned by multinational corporations providing cheap produce for supermarkets and excluding independent farmers, particularly in developing countries. And it's so inefficient! Grow acres and acres of grain and soya to feed to cattle at a 10% conversion ratio, that's 10kg of grain to make 1kg of beef. I mean, you could solve world hunger if you just ate the bloody grain!

Anyway, to near the end of my ramble, massive kudos to those who go out and hunt wild animals. I believe the answer lies in rabbits, pheasants and deer. In order to have these animals you need good quality woodland and grassland, so the environment is preserved, every organism has their place in the food chain, the animals reproduce rapidly enough so that everyone can have them, and problem solved. However this will only be successful if the population is halved. Or if we get over our ridiculous meat addiction and start treating it like a rare treat to have once a week and seriously enjoy, rather than cramming down tasteless mass produced chicken and ham at every meal.

So, meat eaters, at least you're not pretending to be anything else, but hypocritical vegetarians really do my nut in.
(miskatonic, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 0:18, 13 replies)

Personally,
I don't eat anything that makes me feel guilty for eating it.

Fuck you, prawns.
( Reid got it going on like Donkey Kong, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 0:23, closed)

Not sure I entirely agree...
I was vegan for 16 years, for much the same reasons as you have outlined. But a couple of years ago I moved in with my partner who eats meat. She is more than happy to eat vegetarian, but not so keen on strictly vegan fare.
As I do most of the cooking, we compromised: we eat vegetarian at home.

By your argument, I should stop being vegetarian and cook meat for me and my gf. I can't see how adding further animal products to our diet would be a good thing.
(Tony Macaroni hello, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 1:18, closed)

Consistency is overrated
Do you get annoyed by vegetarians wearing leather shoes too?
Occasionally I break some laws (I might have stolen some paperclips from the office at some point in my life). Does that mean to avoid hypocrisy I should try and break all laws?
Then again, I do agree with you on the problem of factory farmed food being disassociated from the means of its production, but, and it's quite a big but, why do people feel you should only be able to eat what you kill. Are you a hypocrite to use a flush toilet if you're not a plumber?
(James Cushtie, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 2:51, closed)

That'll be me then
With the shotgun and spaniels. However what really bugs me those who won't eat what I have hunted because they don't know where it's been!!!! What, you know where that chicken lived, how it died and was transported, butchered and wrapped in plastic? What you have been offered was shot yesterday and I have prepared it myself. If you can't come to terms with what meat actually is, then you should not be eating it
(conanow, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 8:30, closed)

People like you piss me off...
Not really.

Look, just because someone is more or less virtuous in one area doesn't mean they're overall attitudes match up. I'm a vegetarian, I love racing cars (not at all green) and my own car didn't come with a choice of interior materials, so it's slathered in leather. Hypocrite? Well, who knows - I just do the bits I can and accept that I'm not, and never can be, perfect in every single way.

What is important is that we all try and stop trying to judge each other on small aspects of what we see. Prejudice isn't just about looking at skin colour, it's about making simple judgements before you know the full facts.

But you're still right that people need to cut down their taste in meat - the amount being eaten in the West is shocking.
(clopinettes, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 8:45, closed)

Couple of things
You're wrong about a lot and in fairy land about some of the rest (halving the population!) but these two things are worth talking about:

A cow is a good way of turning plants into protein. That 1kg of beef is far more nutritious than 10kg of grain. It's not a 10% conversion ratio, it's more akin to a process of distillation. You wouldn't solve world hunger by eating grain, you'd end up with severe malnutrition.

I mostly agree with you on intensive farming, particularly the bit about excluding farmers from developing countries. You could, as I have, write to your MP & MEP and lobby for the end of CAP and the gradual introduction of free trade, at the very least the removal of tarifs on foodstuffs imported from Africa.

Right enough of that bollocks, there must be a funny story here somewhere.
( Scrumper, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 10:09, closed)

I'm pretty sure eating the *grain* would be better.
The cow does use a lot of the energy in the grain for itself, and to grow the bits that you don't eat. Not to mention that grain is really bad for cows, because their digestive system evolved to process grass. Feeding them essentially pure starch is not good.

Not that I'm arguing against eating cows here... what a cow *is*, is a good way of turning grass into food for humans. Because eating the grass definitely wouldn't solve any problems. And grass-fed beef is nicer than grain-fed, anyway.
(julius, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 10:25, closed)

Fair point
Yep, agree with the last paragraph. Generally though a lb of cow is going to give you more nutrition than a lb of grain (or grass, or any other plant) which was what I was trying to get at.

There's usually a mix in feeding. Bullocks will eat grass mostly but grain-based feed does come into it too to get them up to weight. All grain is very bad.

I am definitely having a steak tonight now.
( Scrumper, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 10:30, closed)

grain/grass/meat
er... Fail.

It's not really the point that meat is more energy-dense than grass or grain that is the point here. The point is, if you have one person, kept alive on meat, you could take the resources needed to do that, and feed 10 people, if they were vegans. And I'm not a hypocrite, I LOVE meat!! And eat lots of it too.
(Lump, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 13:42, closed)

Glad you have nothing against me for not pretending to be anything else :)
I just love the taste of meat. I find that if I have a meal without it, I don't feel satisfied - like I've only eaten a starter without a main course.
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 10:29, closed)

If you're concerned about the environment, so you cut down on unneccessary driving, drive more economically, perhaps getting a more environmentally-friendly car, that's okay is it? BUT YOU'RE STILL POLLUTING!!!!1111!11onetyoneone...

Yet when someone like me cuts the use of animals out of my diet and my life to a massive degree, I'm a villain because I haven't made it a 100% cut? Naff off, you dickhead; you're yelling at the people making an effort and praising those who aren't bothering at all!
(Musuko, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 14:23, closed)

in total agreement
with your philosophy of eating mean (not intrinsically wrong, but industrialised meat is evil..) however i don't see why you have a problem with vegetarians, yes it does seem hypocritical, but not monumentally. i mean would you rather they ate industrialised meat?
principled actions don't just have effects in the real world, but in the psychological world too. I mean at least a lot of vegetarians have there eyes more open than the rest...


what i find more hypocritical is the "i'm an animal lover" type. no your not. you love dogs and cats and cute little rabbits. you don't love the chickens and the cows and pigs who had shit lives so you can buy cheap meat.
(ewe, Fri 20 Feb 2009, 17:19, closed)

I ate a vegetable once...
...she tasted pretty much the same as any other girl.
A bit hairier though...
(emadex thinks the world will end on, Sat 21 Feb 2009, 16:39, closed)