I could do with a bit of advice today
I'm feeling terribly depressed with work and life.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:27, 104 replies)

well if its come to the end of the road..
Rape a badger.. they are fucking deadly..and are not gonna be impressed if you go anywhere near their arse.

I am telling you, they will fuck you up good and proper.
(TheRiddler Hmmmmm... I concur., Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:30, closed)

Well
Not bad advice at all, at least made me smile.

Ta.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:33, closed)

Don't eat yellow snow.
sorry, someone would do it eventually
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:33, closed)

That
is a brilliant way to commit suicide. And the best part is, people probabyl won't know it was suicide, they'll think your just a sick twisted pervert who tries to rape wild animals and got their just desserts(sp?).

Spare your family the pain of suicide. Rape a badger.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:34, closed)

Smile.
Eventually it will make you feel better. HOnest gov, it works.
(Teran Thinks Pogonophobia is funny, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:34, closed)

well it worked for that Bodger bloke..
He always had his hand shoved up Badgers arse.. and by the look on his face, he enjoyed it.

I'm not even gonna go into what was in that mashed potato..

hmmm maybe it was rohypnol?
(TheRiddler Hmmmmm... I concur., Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:36, closed)

I always try to smile
But is not always easy.

I'm going home early today. I can't stand another minute more here.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:37, closed)

drink heavily
it works, honest!
(bazmorningstar efil4nat3b, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:37, closed)

Yes!
As I don't think I can manage with the badger, I'll drink myself stupid tonight. And probably be sick tomorrow for work.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:39, closed)

atta boy!
when you're old enough I'll teach you how to experiment with drugs and loose women.
(bazmorningstar efil4nat3b, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:40, closed)

Al,
you saying that to cover your tracks when Bert's family find him after experiencing the Althegeordiesaurus?
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:40, closed)

Loose women?
I like my women tight. Tight and firm. ;~)
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:41, closed)

Is that
wishful thinking again there Gayer?!
(Moniker, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:43, closed)

Well, obviously,
tight and firm women don't exist anymore. The paedos get 'em too soon and then they let themselves go by the time they're old enough for us.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:44, closed)

Old enough for you?
That's what, 16? Or maybe 17 if you're being fussy.
(Moniker, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:47, closed)

Ey
Talk about yourself! I'm tight and firm!
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:47, closed)

uh oh!
it's a girl - run away!!!
(bazmorningstar efil4nat3b, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:49, closed)

Abber, you know the B3ta rules, pics or it's not true.
By 16 or 17 they can still let themselves go. ;)
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:49, closed)

They can only do that
if you leave them the keys....

I too am tight and firm. Tight because as a Scot it comes naturally, never knowingly buying a round. And firm, most especially when I have a large stick to hand.
(Moniker, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:53, closed)

Badum tish?
I'm big and hard.

I'm big 'cause I grow too fast and eat too much. I'm hard because I'm from Manchester, innit.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:55, closed)

Manchester?
You softie southerner!
(Moniker, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:57, closed)

It's okay,
I made myself feel less soft by moving even further south to be amongst real softies. Now I can walk the streets and the crowds are seperated by my pure northern awe.

Anyway, you're Scottish, that doesn't count, you're not north and I'm not south. You're just different. So ner.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:59, closed)

I'm impressed
You made this half an hour worth it.

Thanks for making me laugh. I'm leaving you now (going to buy a flat in Manchester and have a viewing)

I'll read you tomorrow.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:01, closed)

Cya Abber,
hope you feel better, at some point, eventually. And good luck with the flat search.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:02, closed)

Different?
Why thank you! I think.....

*wonders if she's just been insulted*
(Moniker, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:04, closed)

@Moniker
you're a girl too! (said in Brian Blessed tones) - RUN AWAY!!!
(bazmorningstar efil4nat3b, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:10, closed)

@ Moniker
I'd never insult anyone so wonderful as yourself. ahem.

@ Baz
There are alot of wimminfolk on b3ta. ;)
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:13, closed)

@baz
Am I running away from you, or are you running away from me?

@Gayer
You say the nicest things.....
(Moniker, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:14, closed)

@Gayer
*runs away*
(bazmorningstar efil4nat3b, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:14, closed)

@ Moniker
Aye, that I do. Your custard is looking very moist today, I must say.

@ Baz
*glees* one less competitiony person.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:16, closed)

oooh err...
*blushes, smirks, simpers and titters*
tee hee....

mmmmm custard.....
(Moniker, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:20, closed)

I have a custard gun.
You have to pump it to make it work though.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:22, closed)

Ladies and Gentlemen
I give you, the new Kaol, the randy jack russell of B3ta, it's Gayer!
(Bazongaloid, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:23, closed)

Kaol went and got himself a partner to be loved and cherished,
I figured soemone's gotta take his place
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:25, closed)

Thanks anyway Gayer
But I might just stick to the yellow stuff that I was going to make, to go with the home made rhubarb crumble I made earlier. Yummy.
(Moniker, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:25, closed)

Mine's yellow too...
If I mix it with Turmeric.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:26, closed)

Ew!!!
Where's Kaol and his knives? Somehow that was less scary!
(Moniker, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:27, closed)

What's scarey about turmeric flavoured custard?
Adds a bit of spice.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 17:36, closed)

Umm Gayer
Kaol went and got himself some fuckmeat.

What the fuck. I mean really, what the fuck?

Edit: If you're going to edit your posts at least have the decency to say you're editing it and then apologise to the people in question.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 18:53, closed)

You wanted it changing so it wasn't forever on the interweb,
I assumed that upon me changing it, you two would change yours, no?
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:35, closed)

You don't think
maybe an apology for what you've said today and last night would be in order?

No, just cover your tracks and pretend it never happened.

Fucking spineless
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:43, closed)

For what I said last night?
Sorry?

I have explained to Ancrenne the situation with this post. I do not feel an apology is appropriate for today and especially not last night.

Edit:
I have done as she wished and not left it on the internet for eternity. That is sufficient enough for me.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:46, closed)

Wow
that's really big of you.

Takes a real man to do that.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:48, closed)

Explain to me why I should apologise
and if I agree, I shall.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:49, closed)

You said you felt bad about some stuff you'd done earlier
so surely you know already. If not then you really are a prize twat.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:51, closed)

I said I felt dirty,
which was in reference to the bit about the custard gun.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:52, closed)

Look back over your posts
and see if you find anything YOU think you should apologise for and then do so if you think it necessary. I'm not your secretary.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:54, closed)

^ As I said up there ^
I do not feel there is anything I have to apologise for.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:54, closed)

Then I feel
that you are a bit of a twat and have no desire to speak to you any longer.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:00, closed)

There's nothing I want you to change.

(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:06, closed)

Y'know
to assume makes an ass of u and me.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:13, closed)

The changing bit was in reference to the whole fuckmeat thing,
you stated that you didn't like it being on the web for eternity, I thought you would want it taken off the web for eternity.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:16, closed)

Look, I told you that it was said in jest. You may not see it as a joke
but there are alot of things I don't refer to by their normal name. It doesn't mean I'm being derogitory or mysogonistic. It means that I don't give a shit about conforming to what everyone else says.

Additionally, I get the impression that you think I said it as some form of revenge for you fucking me off last night, far from it infact. I would have said it should it have been anyone. It wasn't personal.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:32, closed)

@Gayer
I really don't see how referring to a woman as "fuckmeat" constitutes a joke in your eyes. To even think that could be funny makes you misogynistic.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:34, closed)

No it doesn't, it makes me relaxed about things.
If it was a woman talking about a man in such a way it would just be an invitation for gossip about him.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:37, closed)

Ok Gayer
As a woman, who is constantly catcalled, insulted in the street and even attacked with a knife when I deigned to answer back, let me assure you that you are NOT relaxed about things. Yes, we live in a modern society where women have a lot more equality than they used to, but I still resent being treated like a cunt on legs by an awful lot of men that think that that is an ok attitude. You have absolutely no idea what it is like to be objectified in that way. It fucking hurts. In your profile your top story refers to how unfair it is that a guy took the piss out of a girl just because she was fat, and you thought that that was horrific. Let me tell you that what you are doing is exactly the same thing, but replace the word fat with female.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:43, closed)

Where in what I said does it say that I consider all women to be cunts on legs?
That is not what I think and that is not what I said nor implied. It is nothing to do with the fact that Ancrenne is a woman, were it the other way round I would have said the same thing. Just because I am open about things enough to be able to joke about it does not mean that I actually agree with what I say.

I guess the fault of the internet, being that you can't transfer your tone of voice or facial expressions, is really my killer here.

Oh well, shit happens, 'ey? ;)

Edit:
@ Ancrenne
Oh ffs, get out of your militant feminist mindset and sit back for a bit.

Double edit:
A friend of mine (also female by the way) who has been watching this but can't post as she doesn't have a username says this:
jesus christ these people joke about a missing girl getting fucked by their dad, killed and left in the back of a rental car but cant stand someone calling a woman fuckmeat in jest?
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:50, closed)

Gayer
you just don't get it, do you? If I had upset you to the degree that you have upset ancrenne, I would apologise to you, regardless of the way it was intended. Whatever you meant to say (TBH, I really don't see how you could have intended anything else) ancrenne is upset by it. If you really give a fuck about anyone other than yourself you should just say sorry to her, rather than argue the toss. If I had insulted you, I would not be sitting here, trying to argue my way out of it.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:54, closed)

And if I used it in reference to what Kaol is to you, would you be going on about me for being sexist towards him too?
When it comes down to it, it's just something I said, which I've said before and will say again. It's something which I use to refer to a partner of someone. Don't like it, fine, not gonna stop me thinking what I think.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:55, closed)

Also
I don't recall ever joking about something like that. Don't tar us all with the same brush.

And wanting to be seen as someone rather than something is a far cry from being a militant feminist.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:55, closed)

I don't like to apologise if I don't mean it.
I may sound cold and heartless, but if she took offense to it that's in her own doing. I do not feel sorry and therefore I will not lie and say that I do.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:56, closed)

Go you
Most people say sorry when they upset others. Basic people skills and all that.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:57, closed)

Most people may do that.
It doesn't mean they should. You should only say sorry for something if you mean it.

Anyway, evidently I am not most people.
(Belgaer is, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:58, closed)

Clearly
You, sir, are a cunt.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Tue 24 Jun 2008, 23:59, closed)

Oh good,
does that mean that I'm attached to a woman who's just there to transport me from one fuck to the other?
(Belgaer is, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:00, closed)

Oh fuckit you've annoyed me now
Where in what I said does it say that I consider all women to be cunts on legs?
That is not what I think and that is not what I said nor implied. It is nothing to do with the fact that Ancrenne is a woman, were it the other way round I would have said the same thing. Just because I am open about things enough to be able to joke about it does not mean that I actually agree with what I say.

If you don't agree with what you say then why say it? We ALL say things in jest, but most of us have the common sense to not post something about a person whom we had previously chatted to on a regular basis that had a high probability of upsetting them. It's a think before you post kinda thing Gayer.

I guess the fault of the internet, being that you can't transfer your tone of voice or facial expressions, is really my killer here.

Oh well, shit happens, 'ey? ;)

Shit happens. Well done. Rather than consider your actions and the feeling of others and provide an apologies it all comes down to shit happens.

Edit:
@ Ancrenne
Oh ffs, get out of your militant feminist mindset and sit back for a bit.

It's not a feminist thing, it's a self respect thing.

Double edit:
A friend of mine (also female by the way) who has been watching this but can't post as she doesn't have a username says this:
jesus christ these people joke about a missing girl getting fucked by their dad, killed and left in the back of a rental car but cant stand someone calling a woman fuckmeat in jest?

I can't say I recall making any maddy jokes, nor Ancrenne or MM, please correct me if I'm wrong.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:01, closed)

mmmm....nnnnnn....grrrrr..... GAH!
Okay, dammit, I am going to completely violate several things I said today and voice an opinion.

Gayer, as I recall, is one of the younger b3tans. In fact, he's the same age as my son.

Eighteen year old boys joke around, sometimes very inappropriately. My son, for instance, referred to someone as a cunt while working, as he had been spending time online with some British types. The English use of the word has the same general connotations as "asshole" does over here. But over here the word cunt is almost taboo, and is the harshest thing you can call a woman. As I never use the word outside of here, he was rather unaware of this- and got fired from his job for it.

My take on this is that Gayer didn't mean for his term to be as hurtful and offensive as it turned out to be. Rest assured that he knows this now, and I would guess he's unlikely to make the same mistake again.

I'm not saying that you lot were wrong in berating him for it- this was a lesson he apparently needed to learn. But at the same time, please do not brand him as an asshole over this. My feeling from talking to him is that he's a pretty nice kid- just one who made a bit of a blunder.

Gayer, I think a quick and sincere public apology is in order- and then after that, please, let's all let the matter rest, okay?

And now that I've shot of my goddam mouth YET AGAIN in an area that doesn't concern me, I'm out for the evening.

Night, all.
( The Resident Loon Not a demographic. Do not measure., Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:02, closed)

TRL
agreed, but he won't appologise. He seems to think it's ancrenne's fault for getting upset.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:05, closed)

* jumps in *
"When it comes down to it, it's just something I said, which I've said before and will say again. It's something which I use to refer to a partner of someone. Don't like it, fine, not gonna stop me thinking what I think."

Speaking as a male, I too find what you said earlier mysoginistic and offensive. If you use that term to refer to any partner of anyone, your idea of relationships is seriously screwed up.
( mistaspakkaman and the inedible shifting caterpillars, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:07, closed)

TRL I agree for the most part
but wasn't going to bring up the age thing as it sparked an ugly debate last night. It's clear that Ancrenne and Gayer will have differing opinions on things as they have had different life experiences. No better, no worse, just different.

However, surely the common sense view is that you do not refer to someone who's company you have enjoyed several days ago and have chatted with online a 'fuckmeat' or a bint.

It's a given, they're just words, semantics, psychobabble etc... but they are hurtful words given the context in which they're said and the person whom they're uttered by.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:09, closed)

@ TRL
You're sort of with it there. Sort of.

Spakka:
Have you not followed it all the way through? I have stated that this is not a view which I take seriously. It was a comment I made which was not serious. 'kay? 'Kay.

Becky/MM:
It's how it's taken. I did not mean it offensively however, people jumped in straight away with the insults and flaming, before I had a chance to state my views on it all. I could well have apologised had people not straight away ripped into me before listening to what I had to say. Now, I feel that I have been misheard and that people are too fucked off to read what I say properly. Therefore I will not apologise as I will be apologising for the wrong reasons and will be apologising for something which you will take as an apology for something else.
(Belgaer is, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:21, closed)

Gayer
among other things, you called two women on here fuckmeat and bint. Just how do you expect to be taken out of context from that?
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:22, closed)

The bint thing is completely irrelevent.
I was on the phone to Wanderlust as I typed that, I told her what I had typed and she's been speaking to me long enough to "know what I'm like" so to speak. She took it as I intended for her to take it and hasn't said anything to suggest otherwise to me.

Re fuckmeat:
I have stated my story behind this and you're starting to repeat yourself. I'm not going to do the same, I shall just refer you to the top of this thread, to re-read it. It should just about work out exactly the same.
(Belgaer is, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:25, closed)

Gayer
"Most people may do that.
It doesn't mean they should. You should only say sorry for something if you mean it."

Don't insult my fucking intelligence. You never intended to appologise, and don't you fucking dare climb up on your high horse and blame everyone else. You made the comment.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:27, closed)

@gayer
"Spakka: Have you not followed it all the way through? I have stated that this is not a view which I take seriously. It was a comment I made which was not serious. 'kay? 'Kay."

The point is that other people do take it seriously and when you say it, it deeply offends them. Regardless of whether you meant it in jest or meant it seriously, the offense will be made.
( mistaspakkaman and the inedible shifting caterpillars, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:27, closed)

Please stop now, Gayer.
You're showing your age, or rather lack thereof.

My 2 cents - fuckmeat is a nasty word, and that's fine, I use a lot of nasty words. Thing is, there's a big difference between nasty words used in abstraction for comedic effect and nasty words used specifically in reference to people. Hopefully this is something you've just learnt.

Edited for clarity of target.
(wellgroomedwookiee is a filthy-minded hobgoblin, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:28, closed)

@ MM
I made that comment quite a way down the thread, after all the insulting had started (I had been following the other thread by the way and had been reading all the crap directed at me, I know that those who had not jumped in wanted to).

Oh, and Becky and Ancrenne were there from the start. I had actually taken it privately with Ancrenne however, it all escalated to this. Which is now lots and lots of lovely friendly people.
(Belgaer is, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:29, closed)

Gayer
look how many people feel that they needed to say something on this thread. How many people have jumped in and defended ancrenne. If that hasn't taught you that what you said was wrong, then I don't know what else to say.

EDIT:Everyone started insulting YOU? Jesus...
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:32, closed)

You really don't get it
You have upset a lot of b3tans and not just the one's posting here and still refuse to acknowledge that you did a silly thing without thinking and are not man enough to apologise for it.

I have lost a lot of respect for you that I once had.

Yeah you're young and when you're young you say stupid things without meaning them. But when you know full well that they have caused offence you retract what you have said and you apologise for your actions and attempt to make amends. You don't start blaming others as that is fucking spineless in my book.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:32, closed)

Thing is
When you consider that you publicly insulted Ancrenne, refused to apologise and then left comments on here all day why should she feel the need to sort it out with you in private?

If you feel it necessary to berate her in public then I feel it fair to do the same back to you.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:34, closed)

Alot of people jumped in and supported Hitler;
does that make what he did right? The majority does not make something right.

Becky: I did not blame anyone else. At all, I don't know where you're getting this from. Also, I don't care how much of a man I am. I'm not after the whole macho persona.

Ancrenne: I was afk when both the reply and the message was sent, had I been here when either were sent I would have replied straight away. Either way, I had taken it with you privately, regardless of who sent the first message.
(Belgaer is, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:35, closed)

Nice work
now that you've made that point about Hitler I totally see you POV
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:37, closed)

Godwin's law!
Sorry Gayer, you lose.

Someone lock this thread.
(wellgroomedwookiee is a filthy-minded hobgoblin, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:38, closed)

Yes you are
You're blaming us for not taking it the way you intended when any reasonable person could see that it would cause offence.

Oh a Hitler reference? Classy. Many people were forced into supporting him so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there.

It's not about a macho persona it's about being a decent human and treating others as such. Something along the lines of having the balls to accept that you are wrong and apologise for what you did.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:39, closed)

Metaphore's a metaphore,
I don't think it matters what was inside the metaphore as long as it makes the point.
(Belgaer is, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:40, closed)

I think you mean
metaphor possibly?

Good to know you're being understood tonight isn't it?
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:41, closed)

Ancrenne
When you can't lower the tone, you might as well try to raise a smile ;)
(wellgroomedwookiee is a filthy-minded hobgoblin, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:41, closed)

Nah, I create my own rules.

(Belgaer is, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:42, closed)

Gayer, if that's the way you feel
I don't really think you should still be using b3ta. What's great about this site is there is a real sense of community, and we all work together to build relationships and forums together, and support each other. If you don't want to be part of that, and would prefer to insult others without a care for the impact of that, then this is not the place for you.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:45, closed)

http://www.b3ta.com/features/faq/#naughty
What happens if I decide to be naughty and disobey all these rules?

If people make the occasional mistake or if they unknowingly do something wrong, a friendly board moderator will edit your message and point out what you did. Anybody on the board trying to annoy and cause trouble will be banned.
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Wed 25 Jun 2008, 0:49, closed)

What a surprise
when I saw this morning 103 replies!!

It's being amusing to read you all. I almost couldn't stop laughing when one of the girls (I think MM) called Gayer "cunt"; that is misogyny, ladies!

And don’t come and tell me you’ve never said anything like “I found a good cock yesterday”

C’mon, he doesn’t think you’re fuckmeat, because if he did, he wouldn’t reply to your comments.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 25 Jun 2008, 11:21, closed)