Out of interestwhat does the 'expert' side involve?
I've only ever seen it used to sell small businesses blogs and twitter, which I rarely think they need. They never seem to have been taught what to write on them, or merely told it has mystery 'seo value'.
Indeed, one of my clients who'd been sold all this functionality in the past told me that he felt he was just blogging to no-one, but had been sold on the fact that it was a necessary part of business nowadays.
Is there more to it than this?
And, I'll ask you what I've been asking the others - what qualifications do you need to be a Social Media Expert?
(I've only ever seen it used to sell small businesses blogs and twitter, which I rarely think they need. They never seem to have been taught what to write on them, or merely told it has mystery 'seo value'.
Indeed, one of my clients who'd been sold all this functionality in the past told me that he felt he was just blogging to no-one, but had been sold on the fact that it was a necessary part of business nowadays.
Is there more to it than this?
And, I'll ask you what I've been asking the others - what qualifications do you need to be a Social Media Expert?
monkeon schmonkeon,
Wed 23 Jun 2010, 9:43,
archived)
One of my clients has just started out in the last 6 months, we recommended starting a blog and it's already the highest generator of traffic to his main site. Fair enough, we're talking faily low numbers right now as he's in a particularly competitive area but blog traffic should grow alongside traffic to the main site.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. If your client honestly didn't see the benefit or value then he shouldn't have swallowed the sales talk. If he had been convinced that there could be some value but doesn't have the creative capacity to develop interest in his blog then that's hardly the agency's fault - he's the one doing the writing!
Also, don't make the mistake of assuming that comments = readers. Some blogs have a hardcore user base of a few hundred, many of whom comment. Some blogs have a readership of thousands thanks to being included in Google News, for example, but recieve very few comments (other than the usual "thanks for posting!" shite).
When you say "they don't need blogs or twitter"... perhaps they don't need it, but they see it as having potential to help market their services? Perhaps they don't need a website, given that they can now have an online presence at absolutely no cost by setting up their own twitter / facebook? Would you ever turn down a clients business because you thought that perhaps they didn't absolutely, 100% need a website?
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Wed 23 Jun 2010, 10:39,
archived)
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. If your client honestly didn't see the benefit or value then he shouldn't have swallowed the sales talk. If he had been convinced that there could be some value but doesn't have the creative capacity to develop interest in his blog then that's hardly the agency's fault - he's the one doing the writing!
Also, don't make the mistake of assuming that comments = readers. Some blogs have a hardcore user base of a few hundred, many of whom comment. Some blogs have a readership of thousands thanks to being included in Google News, for example, but recieve very few comments (other than the usual "thanks for posting!" shite).
When you say "they don't need blogs or twitter"... perhaps they don't need it, but they see it as having potential to help market their services? Perhaps they don't need a website, given that they can now have an online presence at absolutely no cost by setting up their own twitter / facebook? Would you ever turn down a clients business because you thought that perhaps they didn't absolutely, 100% need a website?
Could you give an example of asmall non-internet related business' Twitter feed which a real human being would follow. It does not have to be one of yours.
Following a company Twitter feed just seems like asking someone to spam you. Hardly "social".
As regards "Would you ever turn down a clients business because you thought that perhaps they didn't absolutely, 100% need a website?" - I've told people that they didn't need elements which they were asking for. I don't think I could sell to someone who couldn't see any benefit in a website, they would ask questions and see right through me. People seem to understand what a website is, when they are still confused about social media, so they can easily be blinded.
edit: I *can* see the need in a blog, but only if someone has the time and the desire to write for it. Successful blogs are written for love. If they are just written for sales, they will only be read if found when answering a specific question - and then the chances of the reader being someone who wants to use the companies' services is still slim.
The only benefit of such blogs surely is for SEO, in which case they are doing their own link building and shouldn't be paying for that seperately.
Is the time taken writing blogs really that productive for a business in terms of the sales it generates? How do you measure that?
(Following a company Twitter feed just seems like asking someone to spam you. Hardly "social".
As regards "Would you ever turn down a clients business because you thought that perhaps they didn't absolutely, 100% need a website?" - I've told people that they didn't need elements which they were asking for. I don't think I could sell to someone who couldn't see any benefit in a website, they would ask questions and see right through me. People seem to understand what a website is, when they are still confused about social media, so they can easily be blinded.
edit: I *can* see the need in a blog, but only if someone has the time and the desire to write for it. Successful blogs are written for love. If they are just written for sales, they will only be read if found when answering a specific question - and then the chances of the reader being someone who wants to use the companies' services is still slim.
The only benefit of such blogs surely is for SEO, in which case they are doing their own link building and shouldn't be paying for that seperately.
Is the time taken writing blogs really that productive for a business in terms of the sales it generates? How do you measure that?
monkeon schmonkeon,
Wed 23 Jun 2010, 14:38,
archived)
"they will only be read if found when answering a specific question"
Ding! you've hit on an excellent point there.... people use Google as a Q&A engine as much as a search engine, and often link to a page if it answers their question (think forums and other blogs). They also clearly have an interest in what you're writing about to be asking in the first place, so while they might not buy then, they may in future, or perhaps refer someone else to your site.
I also see a company blog kind of like an online version of the magazines that are given away in some stores... I think Superdrug has one, for example. You can discuss/promote specific products or services you're selling in less formal way than you might on your website, and attract people back to the site with regular updates (like some people will pop into superdrug to pick up the newest copy of their magazine).
So a blog *can*
1) encourage people to return to an otherwise static domain
2) encourage links
3) provide an easy way to add content which might in turn attract new visitors from search
It's a big *can* though, this won't happen by just throwing a blog up and churning out a post each week. I wouldn't say the writer needs to love the blog, but they do need to have a personable writing style and an insight into what they're writing about. The agency in question might not have made that clear, or the client might have chosen to ignore it, hard to say.
I'll have to get back to you on the small businesses that are benefitting from Twitter / a blog as the only ones I can think of right now are my own clients which, to be honest, I don't want to discuss here.
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Wed 23 Jun 2010, 17:34,
archived)
Ding! you've hit on an excellent point there.... people use Google as a Q&A engine as much as a search engine, and often link to a page if it answers their question (think forums and other blogs). They also clearly have an interest in what you're writing about to be asking in the first place, so while they might not buy then, they may in future, or perhaps refer someone else to your site.
I also see a company blog kind of like an online version of the magazines that are given away in some stores... I think Superdrug has one, for example. You can discuss/promote specific products or services you're selling in less formal way than you might on your website, and attract people back to the site with regular updates (like some people will pop into superdrug to pick up the newest copy of their magazine).
So a blog *can*
1) encourage people to return to an otherwise static domain
2) encourage links
3) provide an easy way to add content which might in turn attract new visitors from search
It's a big *can* though, this won't happen by just throwing a blog up and churning out a post each week. I wouldn't say the writer needs to love the blog, but they do need to have a personable writing style and an insight into what they're writing about. The agency in question might not have made that clear, or the client might have chosen to ignore it, hard to say.
I'll have to get back to you on the small businesses that are benefitting from Twitter / a blog as the only ones I can think of right now are my own clients which, to be honest, I don't want to discuss here.
."They also clearly have an interest in what you're writing about to be asking in the first place, so while they might not buy then, they may in future, or perhaps refer someone else to your site."
When you read a blog post, do you remember the adverts around the side?
I can see people linking to your site if someone asks a question you have already answered on another part of the internet, which, fair enough is actually ethical link building (a rare thing).
However, I'm sure most users searching for a question aren't going to stay and look around when they've got their answer. They'll google a question, find an answer and leave. That's certainly how I use google. I'd only stay to look around if it stood out as brilliantly written.
Do you trace people's clicks from the blog to see how many people click through to the main site, or use cookies to see returning people, as that would show results?
edit: examples are the best way of proving a point, so if you could find some, that would be good.
(When you read a blog post, do you remember the adverts around the side?
I can see people linking to your site if someone asks a question you have already answered on another part of the internet, which, fair enough is actually ethical link building (a rare thing).
However, I'm sure most users searching for a question aren't going to stay and look around when they've got their answer. They'll google a question, find an answer and leave. That's certainly how I use google. I'd only stay to look around if it stood out as brilliantly written.
Do you trace people's clicks from the blog to see how many people click through to the main site, or use cookies to see returning people, as that would show results?
edit: examples are the best way of proving a point, so if you could find some, that would be good.
monkeon schmonkeon,
Wed 23 Jun 2010, 17:56,
archived)
"When you read a blog post, do you remember the adverts around the side?"
That depends on the blog. And who says the ad has to be around the blog? Anchor text links in the blog text itself can be very tempting to the reader if done right.
"I can see people linking to your site if someone asks a question you have already answered on another part of the internet, which, fair enough is actually ethical link building (a rare thing)."
You'd be surprised how much effort goes into "ethical" link building, and this usually results in the best links - relevant, freely given and often likely to result in actual traffic from the link.
"However, I'm sure most users searching for a question aren't going to stay and look around when they've got their answer."
Most won't, some will. Most won't link to it, some will.
"Do you trace people's clicks from the blog to see how many people click through to the main site."
If we're managing the blog for the client, then yes, absolutely!
"edit: examples are the best way of proving a point, so if you could find some, that would be good"
Here's one, shows how it can work for a fairly small, niche online business, www.kapow-toys.com/. It's nothing to do with me by the way, but I can totally see how it'd be benefit them. They have a blog at kapowtoys.blogspot.com/ (shame it's not self hosted as it's attracted a couple of links, but as I say, nothing to do with me!) and a Twitter account at twitter.com/Kapow_Toys/, with over 800 followers, many of whom seem to be real people.
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Thu 24 Jun 2010, 9:54,
archived)
That depends on the blog. And who says the ad has to be around the blog? Anchor text links in the blog text itself can be very tempting to the reader if done right.
"I can see people linking to your site if someone asks a question you have already answered on another part of the internet, which, fair enough is actually ethical link building (a rare thing)."
You'd be surprised how much effort goes into "ethical" link building, and this usually results in the best links - relevant, freely given and often likely to result in actual traffic from the link.
"However, I'm sure most users searching for a question aren't going to stay and look around when they've got their answer."
Most won't, some will. Most won't link to it, some will.
"Do you trace people's clicks from the blog to see how many people click through to the main site."
If we're managing the blog for the client, then yes, absolutely!
"edit: examples are the best way of proving a point, so if you could find some, that would be good"
Here's one, shows how it can work for a fairly small, niche online business, www.kapow-toys.com/. It's nothing to do with me by the way, but I can totally see how it'd be benefit them. They have a blog at kapowtoys.blogspot.com/ (shame it's not self hosted as it's attracted a couple of links, but as I say, nothing to do with me!) and a Twitter account at twitter.com/Kapow_Toys/, with over 800 followers, many of whom seem to be real people.
.Might be a nice blog, but unfortunately, it's recieved no inbound links, and no comments.
They are following 1,944 people. How many of the 857 are not just auto-follows. How would you test that?
They have had no re-tweets which means that even with over 800 people, when you tweet, surely it's a very small amount who actually see it (who are viewing the feed for the few seconds).
Also, their posts all seem to be marketing based, so why would someone follow it - it's like asking for spam.
I think if they were sold twitter, then they were failed by not being told to use it as a friendly voice for customers to interact with, rather than a place to post adverts.
(They are following 1,944 people. How many of the 857 are not just auto-follows. How would you test that?
They have had no re-tweets which means that even with over 800 people, when you tweet, surely it's a very small amount who actually see it (who are viewing the feed for the few seconds).
Also, their posts all seem to be marketing based, so why would someone follow it - it's like asking for spam.
I think if they were sold twitter, then they were failed by not being told to use it as a friendly voice for customers to interact with, rather than a place to post adverts.
monkeon schmonkeon,
Thu 24 Jun 2010, 10:07,
archived)
I had a quick flick through the followers... obviously some are auto follows, but you quickly get a nose for those that aren't. Lets say that even three quarters of them are auto followers, that's still over 200 people that have opted to recieve a real time feed from that store on the products they're selling. If they're regular buyers, that could make a signficant impact.
The blog HAS recieved links - here's one right here! www.transformersanimated.com/news/9407/Further+confirmation+of+Japanese+released+including+images+of+Rodimus. And seriously, like I've said before, don't worry too much about comments. Do you really want to comment on *everything* you read online?
Why would someone follow it? Same reason you might ask for an email newsletter - you're actually interested in the store and their products.
I can't account for the way either the blog or the twitter feed is run and I agree it could be done better... doesn't make it a waste of time or money though. That's assuming he's even spending money on it - he may be doing it off his own back, which would explain the oversights.
(,
Thu 24 Jun 2010, 10:19,
archived)
The blog HAS recieved links - here's one right here! www.transformersanimated.com/news/9407/Further+confirmation+of+Japanese+released+including+images+of+Rodimus. And seriously, like I've said before, don't worry too much about comments. Do you really want to comment on *everything* you read online?
Why would someone follow it? Same reason you might ask for an email newsletter - you're actually interested in the store and their products.
I can't account for the way either the blog or the twitter feed is run and I agree it could be done better... doesn't make it a waste of time or money though. That's assuming he's even spending money on it - he may be doing it off his own back, which would explain the oversights.
."Why would someone follow it? Same reason you might ask for an email newsletter - you're actually interested in the store and their products."
Well, I'm not one to follow advertising advertising newsletters either, so I'd probably ask the same about them.
I know some people do (though often it's through forgetting to check the box that says not to).
Which companies' tweets do you yourself enjoy recieving?
(Well, I'm not one to follow advertising advertising newsletters either, so I'd probably ask the same about them.
I know some people do (though often it's through forgetting to check the box that says not to).
Which companies' tweets do you yourself enjoy recieving?
monkeon schmonkeon,
Thu 24 Jun 2010, 10:50,
archived)
So you'd advise websites stop sending email newsletters too?
Thankfully everybody likes using the internet differently.
Off the top of my head, IDW publishing, I enjoy their comics and want to know when they have new ones out.
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Thu 24 Jun 2010, 10:58,
archived)
Thankfully everybody likes using the internet differently.
Off the top of my head, IDW publishing, I enjoy their comics and want to know when they have new ones out.
Okay, I'll concede thatentertainment is an area that twitter can actually sell product.
But what about duller products such as Double Glazing?
Do you really think that such companies could benefit from twitter?
You might have a decent approach to who you sell to, but do you not think that there are many people who are getting sold twitter and a blog who really do not need it?
(But what about duller products such as Double Glazing?
Do you really think that such companies could benefit from twitter?
You might have a decent approach to who you sell to, but do you not think that there are many people who are getting sold twitter and a blog who really do not need it?
monkeon schmonkeon,
Thu 24 Jun 2010, 11:08,
archived)
As I say, it's hard to judge the "need" of any online promotion. It is what you make of it. Double glazing you say? renegadeconservatoryguy.co.uk/
Mind you, that same guy says he thinks Twitter is a waste of time, although he links through to his facebook. As I say, it's what you make of it.
I'll concede that there are doubtless cowboy companies indiscriminately selling blogs to people that they're probably confident will be of no benefit to them. Just try not to tar us all with the same brush. Besides, it's not like cowboy web developers are in short supply.
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Thu 24 Jun 2010, 11:34,
archived)
Mind you, that same guy says he thinks Twitter is a waste of time, although he links through to his facebook. As I say, it's what you make of it.
I'll concede that there are doubtless cowboy companies indiscriminately selling blogs to people that they're probably confident will be of no benefit to them. Just try not to tar us all with the same brush. Besides, it's not like cowboy web developers are in short supply.
Fair enough.Although his blog does seem a success because he wants to write.
There's no sales-talk on it, just things he finds interesting.
Which was a point I think I made earlier - the only successful blogs are ones which are written by someone with a love of writing.
A businessman forced to write something is not going to be read.
It's usually hard enough to get clients to sit down and write normal content for a website, they have better things to be doing - so writing a blog is going to be a chore to most.
(There's no sales-talk on it, just things he finds interesting.
Which was a point I think I made earlier - the only successful blogs are ones which are written by someone with a love of writing.
A businessman forced to write something is not going to be read.
It's usually hard enough to get clients to sit down and write normal content for a website, they have better things to be doing - so writing a blog is going to be a chore to most.
monkeon schmonkeon,
Thu 24 Jun 2010, 11:54,
archived)
True, but do you think the idea was originally his or that of Motionlab Marketing, linked to from the footer?
This is what I mean - if a businessman buys a blog and then writes nothing worth reading, who's fault is it really, when you can see right there that it can work so long as you put the effort in, even for something as tedious as double glazing? Should the company they're dealing with refuse to set them up the blog, or refrain from mentioning it as a possibility, because they don't think the client is interesting enough to sustain it?
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Thu 24 Jun 2010, 12:04,
archived)
This is what I mean - if a businessman buys a blog and then writes nothing worth reading, who's fault is it really, when you can see right there that it can work so long as you put the effort in, even for something as tedious as double glazing? Should the company they're dealing with refuse to set them up the blog, or refrain from mentioning it as a possibility, because they don't think the client is interesting enough to sustain it?
."Should the company they're dealing with refuse to set them up the blog, or refrain from mentioning it as a possibility, because they don't think the client is interesting enough to sustain it?"
They should ask him whether he thinks that he has the time and desire to write decent content, they should then help guide him in his articles to avoid him going down the sales talk route.
I may be wrong, but this does not seem to happen very often. Most corporate blogs I stumble across have nothing to them. There is no guidance there, and they are scared of offering opinion through fear of damaging brand.
(They should ask him whether he thinks that he has the time and desire to write decent content, they should then help guide him in his articles to avoid him going down the sales talk route.
I may be wrong, but this does not seem to happen very often. Most corporate blogs I stumble across have nothing to them. There is no guidance there, and they are scared of offering opinion through fear of damaging brand.
monkeon schmonkeon,
Thu 24 Jun 2010, 12:13,
archived)
I only used the term 'expert' as that was what was billed in the image, my offical (bollocks) title is 'producer of social media'.
Generally my job entails of upkeep of my company website, it's subsidiary websites, including facebook, twitter, myspace, flickr etc, policing them, updating regulary with new content which either i create myself or is supplied by my bosses, etc. I do agree that it's more about the time and effort to be putting in, rather than expertise.
I have, however, been to many seminars which have focussed on the rising importance of social media in regards to selling a product. Advertising is becoming less and less effective when it comes to selling a product, in the current climate we live in, with the ease it is to talk to folk all over the world it would be silly not to exploit that.
One lecture I went to stated that from a study made of internet users, 17% said they actively listen to advertising, though 73% would follow a peer reccomendation. Thus, if you're making a conversation directly between the company making the product and the market you're selling to, you're far more likely to make a sell, and also for those individuals to pass on their reccomendations to their friends.
All and all it can be quite a time consuming effort to do this work, and when you work for a business with only a couple of producers who have enough on their hands, you do require someone else to manage all this stuff.
You are right though, my job doesn't require as much expertise than a web developer. I am however being trained up to actually manage the more technical aspects of website management. I don't know how you guys do it.
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Fri 25 Jun 2010, 17:48,
archived)
Generally my job entails of upkeep of my company website, it's subsidiary websites, including facebook, twitter, myspace, flickr etc, policing them, updating regulary with new content which either i create myself or is supplied by my bosses, etc. I do agree that it's more about the time and effort to be putting in, rather than expertise.
I have, however, been to many seminars which have focussed on the rising importance of social media in regards to selling a product. Advertising is becoming less and less effective when it comes to selling a product, in the current climate we live in, with the ease it is to talk to folk all over the world it would be silly not to exploit that.
One lecture I went to stated that from a study made of internet users, 17% said they actively listen to advertising, though 73% would follow a peer reccomendation. Thus, if you're making a conversation directly between the company making the product and the market you're selling to, you're far more likely to make a sell, and also for those individuals to pass on their reccomendations to their friends.
All and all it can be quite a time consuming effort to do this work, and when you work for a business with only a couple of producers who have enough on their hands, you do require someone else to manage all this stuff.
You are right though, my job doesn't require as much expertise than a web developer. I am however being trained up to actually manage the more technical aspects of website management. I don't know how you guys do it.