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#

(I helped save b3ta! Mod Edit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:14, archived)
# Gah
So true. There's probably more Hitler in that homeopathic crap than the "active ingredient".
(I helped save b3ta! PopePollo defloculating the soup of the surreal, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:16, archived)
# Hurrah for the truth!
Down with sugar pills as medicine! Go back to the 18th century you scientifically illiterate, logic impaired idiots! :)
(I helped save b3ta! The Alchemist king of the needlessly complicated, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:21, archived)
# The best bit is, the NHS is actually spending money on this rubbish.
Just because some people don't seem to trust medical advice unless it's at least a few hundred years old
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:24, archived)
# This makes me furious.
(I helped save b3ta! Mod Edit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:26, archived)
# I'm a Scientist working in the NHS.
Obviously as a Scientist it's an insult, and to make it worse they're wasting money they could spend on increasing my salary.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:27, archived)
# Maybe the lack of a clear clinical mechanism is an insult to a scientist
but if you happen to be one of the hundreds of thousands of people who feel they've been helped by Homeopathy, don't you think it's kind of insulting to say, you're all fucking idiots who are imagining it?
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:44, archived)
# As I've said down there, I think the treatment has helped them.
But not because homeopathy has any effect.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:45, archived)
# Hmmmm
the scientifically uncomfortable fact is; Homeopathy actually works for some people. There have been scores of rigorous scientific studies, many of them undertaken by major pharmaceutical companies, which have proven that fact beyond doubt.
The really troublesome thing for conventional medical theory and practice is that there is no observable mechanism by which Homeopathy works. All logic says it shouldn't work, and yet it demonstrable does in some cases.
Exactly the same is true of placebos. Again, the uncomfortable, scientifically proven fact, is that some people are cured of medically diagnosed ailments when taking sugar pills. Science sees no clear physical, chemical mechanism for this effect which can be isolated, therefore it regards it as useless. Clearly though, in both the case of the placebo and in the case of Homeopathy, something is happening which can cure or alleviate sometimes serious medical ailments.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:40, archived)
# This is a case of 'mind over matter' in some way.
It seems that patients are cured faster if they think someone is taking an interest in them.
Homeopathic doctors spend much longer with their patients than normal doctors, so the patients feel better and heal faster.
Psychology has a big effect on how fast you'll heal.
In my opinion, the money would be better spent on allowing normal doctors to spend more time with all their patients.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:43, archived)
# placebos also work.
Not proof that sugar is medicine though.
(I helped save b3ta! Linbox has a serious dunk habit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:43, archived)
# But that's entirely my point.
Sugar pills work, therefore there is clearly some other effective mechanism at work, other than purely chemical mechanisms.
Far from eliciting ridicule, this should be a field of urgent investigation.
There's no patent in it though, is there... therefore no possibility of hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:46, archived)
# Yes, I think it's accepted that psychology has an effect on heal rate.
That doesn't excuse spending millions on pounds on homeopathy.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:50, archived)
# On that point, we differ.
I think it does excuse it.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:53, archived)
# As far as I can see, if the same effect is created by cheaply and easily produced things like sugar pills,
there is no need to go down the route of homeopathy.
An interesting study would be to replace the prescriptions of a homeopathic department with pure water for a while,
and see if this has any effect on the patients.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:56, archived)
#
www.b3ta.com/board/8039261
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:57, archived)
# I could be wrong...
... but this probably isn't the right forum...

/hummus/
(I helped save b3ta! Linbox has a serious dunk habit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:54, archived)
# Nah
there's nothing wrong with this discussion. It's good-natured and it's among people who often post images on this forum.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:58, archived)
# Gullible
The problem I have with this area is the quackery. I worked with a woman who had severe medical & mental problems who was fleeced thousands by 'alternative' practitioners. Every week she would tell us the latest theory of her illness and how her 'doctor' was treating her.

It was madness and expensive madness at that.

No denying the placebo/psy effects. Just not keen on the snake-oil sellers.
(I helped save b3ta! Linbox has a serious dunk habit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:20, archived)
# True, but
we wouldn't have to maintain this weird illusion that dilution and shaking a substance is the cause of the medicine's effect.

If placebos are so effective, just pretend sugar pills are strong drugs, and we don't need homeopathy.
(I helped save b3ta! The Alchemist king of the needlessly complicated, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:53, archived)
# I hear you
but the scientifically proven fact remains, sometimes Homeopathy works for some people, so why not use it.
I simply can't see a reason for not using something that works. Particularly since it's something which is incapable of inducing side-effects.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:56, archived)
# But if homeopathy were true,
a tiny dangerous impurity present in the water at the start of the dilution process would become stronger throughout the process.
One of my problems with homeopathy is they seem to think only the desired chemical's effect is amplified, not those of any impurities.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:58, archived)
# That's a good point
but only in terms of addressing the theory that Homeopathy itself puts forward. Personally though I see no reason to address, or engage with, that theory in a scientific way. My stance here is entirely empirical and practical, and can be summed up as:
Given that Homeopathic medicine demonstrably works for some people, why not use it?
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:07, archived)
# Because it's more expensive than treating people with sugar pills or some other placebo,
and may divert money away from more effective treatments.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:09, archived)
# Again, I hear you
but the fact remains that sometimes Homeopathy works for people when other methods, placebo included, fail.
I don't have the figures, but I am willing to bet that the amount of money spent by the NHS on Homeopathy is tiny when compared to the amount of money spent on 'conventional' drugs and treatments.
Despite everything that's been said here, I still don't see a single reason to withhold a potentially helpful treatment from people, particularly one that's so clinically risk-free.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:24, archived)
# In a perfect world, the NHS would offer every potentially beneficial drug available.
But there always has to be a cost-benefit assessment.
I'd be happy for there to be more research done into homeopathy and for it to be compared to other treatments, Science should work by looking at any possible explanation without prejudice.
Normally, treatments aren't offered to patients until this kind of assessment has been done, and it should be the same for homeopathy.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:29, archived)
# Because treating a potentially fatal illness with a nonsense potion
may well delay proper medical attention.
(I helped save b3ta! Mod Edit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:03, archived)
# Come on now.
Homeopathy is never used as a first recourse in the case of a serious illness, at least not by the NHS. There are plenty of reasons to question the use of Homeopathy, but with all due respect, this is not one of them.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:08, archived)
# No, you "come on"
I did not suggest that the NHS did. Patients consult homeopaths and may do so as a first resort. I am personally aware of people who have been given very hazardous advice by homeopathic practitioners that could have had serious consequences.

Do you honestly give any credence to the homeopathic concept of dilution leaving a memory of the treatment in the diluent?
(I helped save b3ta! Mod Edit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:16, archived)
# Well, I don't - I think it IS quackery.
But it has relieved the pains of my best friend who suffers from arthritis, has acute danger of constant thombosis, and is in pain due to her immune system attacking itself.

So if it can do that for whatever reason it may be, homeopathy is good enough to stick around.

And no, it wasn't as a first resort. That avenue almost killed her (antibiotics).
(I helped save b3ta! Dixipoos Bye Bye Blackbird, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:21, archived)
# No. It's not a reason to stick with homeopathy.
It's a reason to examine how and why she is being helped. It certainly is not through the "science" of homeopathy.
(I helped save b3ta! Mod Edit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:30, archived)
# I'm presuming it's rheumatoid arthritis,
which characteristically has periods where it's very serious, followed by periods of apparent remission.
This makes it difficult sometimes to know whether the treatment has affected it, or if it's a natural cycle.
I'm not trying to insult her intelligence here, I'm just saying it's an another possibility.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:41, archived)
# No, I give no credence to it whatever.
But the uncomfortable, unavoidable, clinically proven fact remains, Homeopathic remedies have been shown to cure or alleviate diagnosed medical conditions in some people.
My position is, don't get blind-sided by the dogma and dodgy theories and explanations. Sometimes Homeopathic remedies work. So why not use them?
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:28, archived)
# No, Don't give credence to nonsense.
www.b3ta.com/board/8039260
(I helped save b3ta! Mod Edit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:33, archived)
#
www.b3ta.com/board/8039312

aaaaand the circle is complete.

Hometime!
(I helped save b3ta! Dixipoos Bye Bye Blackbird, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:35, archived)
# Ha, ha
Fun though!
(I helped save b3ta! Mod Edit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 18:56, archived)
# Oh we're not denying the placebo effect
It's in fact immensely difficult to create a drug that works BETTER than the placebo effect.

But the placebo effect is useless for treating many illnesses.
(I helped save b3ta! PopePollo defloculating the soup of the surreal, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:45, archived)
# No you are wrong
Homeopathy does not work at all. The beneficial effect some people may experience after visiting a homeopath may be due to a number of things but not to the homeopathic nostrum they have been given. There is not one properly run double blinded, randomised controlled trial that shows any beneficial effect of homeopathic medicine.

Edit: Having read the stuff that's appeared while I was writing. The placebo effect is well known in mainstream medicine and is sometimes employed. There is a lot of interest in the field of psychoneuropharmacy which is fascinating and I'm not suggesting any of this is nonsense. Homeopathy is nonsense however and deserves to be mocked.

The entire "science" of homeopathy is quackary and nothing else. What is more it is potentially dangerous rubbish.
(I helped save b3ta! Mod Edit, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:56, archived)
# You missed out "..."
(I helped save b3ta! xihpete A neutrino walks straight through a bar, with v>c., Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:25, archived)
# I think
I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Well done.
(Richy_T hundreds if not thousands of dollars, Thu 7 Feb 2008, 17:27, archived)