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This whole 'anti-Zionism isn't anti-semitism' means Zionism requires a clear definition. I used to think that being opposed to Israeli expansionist foreign policy was anti-Zionist and so was not unsympathetic to those who declared themselves anti-Zionist. IMO anti-Zionism has increasingly come to mean opposition to the very right of the state of Israel to continue to exist, which I think clearly is anti-Semitic. Also Vice is a sack of shite for hipsters.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:13, Share, Reply)
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"opposition to the very right of the state of Israel to continue to exist, [is] I think clearly is anti-Semitic"
Is it? By what "right" does the state of Israel exist, given that it didn't in 1947? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the people living there should be driven into the sea or whatever it is their rabid haters want, but... by what "right" does *any* state exist?
Does some bunch of people have a "right" to come to England and say "Right, this place is now called Bongolia, and you have to go live in Yorkshire, just the top bit, and we're building a wall round it"? How would they come by this "right"? Sure, if they had bombs and tanks and helicopters and US backing they could make it happen... but a "right"? Help me, I'm not understanding zis.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:07, Share, Reply)
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However the fact is Israel does now exist. Should the U.S. and U.K. et al have helped create it back in 1947? I would argue that they shouldn't have done. But hindsight is a beautiful thing. I don't think the international community can now say to Israel "Sorry chaps, this isn't really working out, you've had a good seven decade run, but now it's time to pack your bags." But on the other hand the settlers going outside the original borders is IMO unacceptable.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:15, Share, Reply)
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Everybody has to be somewhere. But countries come and go. Borders change. When I was a kid you could go on holiday to Yugoslavia, for instance.
No state has a "right" to exist.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 13:39, Share, Reply)
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But any state that currently does exist has a right to attempt to continue to do so.
And whether or not anyone else likes it, ALL states will make their best attempt to continue to exist.
Corner an animal and try to attack it and you'll quickly find yourself subject to it's teeth and claws. Whether or not you think it has a moral right to brandish those teeth and claws is essentially irrelevant... brandish them it will.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 16:46, Share, Reply)
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and existed as such for at least 1000 years before Mohammad was even born.
I'm not saying that's justification, I'm just saying that the Palestinians have just as poor a claim to it as the Israelis do, since they both got the land by conquest... but if we're going to side with the original owners, it'd be the Jewish people.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:17, Share, Reply)
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Hmmmm - this would be the 'homeland' of the 'wandering tribes of Israel' that lots of sky pixie believers have written of?
Keyword: Wandering
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:27, Share, Reply)
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( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:51, Share, Reply)
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( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:53, Share, Reply)
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then you have to support the Jews, who have the earliest historical claim.
The OTHER point is that that line of argument is inherently bullshit.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 14:11, Share, Reply)
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They wrote a book that said they were God's chosen people (why anyone would ever take umbrage to such a claim is beyond me!) and that they were there first so it's theirs.
Now, the only proof that they were indeed there first is the absence of any other written record or archaeological evidence contradicting that.
In any case, it's a silly argument. You'd need to turf everyone not native american out of the USA, most english and australians would have to relocate to saxony... historical claims.. pfft.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 15:16, Share, Reply)
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Those Cumbrians with their bloody swaggers.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:22, Share, Reply)
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Eh what?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 13:04, Share, Reply)