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This is a normal post Sorry, come to this a bit late...
Mr Penis' point about instinctual habits misses the point that reproduction is the most fundamental urge a living creature has. Breathing and eating are simply chores to be done to ensure that you get the chance to reproduce.

A few billion years ago, an organic molecule formed that had the ability to make copies of itself (something similar to RNA). One of them copied itself slightly differently and was better at making copies of itself than the others... This carried on for a while, and consciousness, intelligence, morality, opposable thumbs etc. were simply emergent properties that helped that molecule get better at making copies of itself.

So one could argue that the desire to reproduce isn't necessarily selfish - it's your core raison d'etre and anything beyond it is selfish foible.

Sentience, intelligence and morality have brought us to the point where we can reason about the world beyond our own instincts, and whilst I don't have a problem at all with anti-natalists (and agree that things like adoption are clearly the "moral high ground"), I think your argument misses this fundamental urge and mistakes it for selfishness.
 (I helped save b3ta! HoratioFellatio Taking the the out of psychotherapist, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 8:53, , Reply)
This is a normal post tl;dr
"I shag therefore I am"
 (I helped save b3ta! admiral crunch holds the newsreader's nose squarely, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 9:02, , Reply)
This is a normal post Nearly there...
"I am, therefore I shag"
 (I helped save b3ta! HoratioFellatio Taking the the out of psychotherapist, Fri 17 Mar 2017, 7:44, , Reply)
This is a normal post Fundamental urge might still be selfish.

(I helped save b3ta! omnitruncatedkraken from Empire Algol, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 9:08, , Reply)
This is a normal post I understand how fundemental an urge it is.
But people choose not to do it all the time, so I don't really feel it's a case of 'We can't help it'. It's more of a case of 'We want it'.
 (Huw Edwards #notalljews, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 9:09, , Reply)
This is a normal post Well, people who do not it are by definition evolutionary dead ends. Let it sit for a while.

(I helped save b3ta! omnitruncatedkraken from Empire Algol, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 9:18, , Reply)
This is a normal post The fact that we're living unsustainably as a species makes us evolutionary dead ends anyway.
Christ, we're so aware of our unsustainability that we're looking at terraforming/populating other planets so that when this one completely dries up, we can just move to another and start over.
But religion/greed/war will kill us all before that happens anyway.

My point is, if I thought we had a reasonably bright, harmonic future then I'd be all for human reproduction. But I don't, therefore I'm not.
 (Huw Edwards #notalljews, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 9:27, , Reply)
This is a normal post So you are denying one species the will to life? That's not very reasonable and fair.
In fact, I think this is an emotional prejudice stemming from conflating external world with moral values.
 (I helped save b3ta! omnitruncatedkraken from Empire Algol, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 9:35, , Reply)
This is a normal post I suppose I am.
But only because I feel as a species we're a bit of a lost cause and contributing nothing. But like with my lifestyle/dietary choices, I'm aware that it's a personal thing and not something I'm going to try and unfairly push on others. I'd love it if everybody agreed with me but at the same time I'm not going to try and ram it down peoples throats, poison their hamburgers or throw acid on them for wearing animal skin. It's just nice to share my perspective every now and again :)
 (Huw Edwards #notalljews, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 9:58, , Reply)
This is a normal post All successful species live unsustainably
That's just normal population flux that has occurred for millennia.

Herbivores find a big plain full of grass that they can eat, everyone thrives, has lots of babies, suddenly the grass gets eaten faster than it grows back and the population dies back. This pulses back and forth ad infinitum or until other environmental factors kick in as well.

We're just a bit smarter, and have the ability to foresee our impending correction and do something about it. I don't see a problem with terraforming other planets. Once we've figured out interstellar travel, then there's an awfully big universe to grow into.

Like, quite literally infinitely big, so over-population is only ever going to be a highly localised problem.
 (I helped save b3ta! HoratioFellatio Taking the the out of psychotherapist, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 9:56, , Reply)
This is a normal post But then we've essentially turned into the alien invaders we're supposed to fear in sci-fi movies.
Sucking a planet dry then moving onto the next. It's essentially colonization/invasion on a macroscopic scale. It's something that leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth personally, which is why I don't really support the idea.
 (Huw Edwards #notalljews, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 10:04, , Reply)
This is a normal post But we won't be sucking planets dry, we'll fill them with life!
And again... the universe is INFINITE. It will never run out of anything.
 (I helped save b3ta! HoratioFellatio Taking the the out of psychotherapist, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 10:15, , Reply)
This is a normal post Creating life is creating death. Inifinite has many meanings.

(I helped save b3ta! omnitruncatedkraken from Empire Algol, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 11:02, , Reply)
This is a normal post Reminds me of that AI that they programmed to play Tetris
After a while, it realised that it always lost, so it just refused to play.
 (I helped save b3ta! HoratioFellatio Taking the the out of psychotherapist, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 17:27, , Reply)
This is a normal post Planets, grass, what's the difference?
I get your point of view, especially after you admit it's emotional tint.
 (I helped save b3ta! omnitruncatedkraken from Empire Algol, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 11:02, , Reply)
This is a normal post That ability to foresee and adapt intelligently is actually a problem.
It means that we prevent most natural die-backs, so our population only keeps growing.
Eventually we'll end up with a problem vastly more problematic than the normal natural disasters, but one which we will not be able to avoid, because it will be the product of ever more intricate optimisations with no room for adaptation left.
 (eViLegion Chief Commissioner of the Scottish Lunacy Board, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 10:11, , Reply)
This is a normal post Put far more eloquently than I could manage
Whilst pretending to be hard at work :)
 (Huw Edwards #notalljews, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 10:14, , Reply)
This is a normal post Everyone keeps referring to the 'Natural' way of things
We are part of nature too - everything that happens is natural.

To quote a Facebook platitude - "You are not in a traffic jam; You ARE the traffic jam".

And your argument that we'll end up at a point where we 'run out of adaptations' just suggests a lack of imagination.
 (I helped save b3ta! HoratioFellatio Taking the the out of psychotherapist, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 10:23, , Reply)
This is a normal post Very fair point.
But my way of thinking is more along the lines of:
"I've contributed to this traffic jam by relying on my car. Perhaps if people didn't rely on cars so much, car shared or chose alternative means of transport, nobody would need to suffer traffic jams such as these."

Actually, my thinking is more along the lines of:
"Stop making cars, we use far too many of them!" But I'm pretty happy with either solution :)
 (Huw Edwards #notalljews, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 10:37, , Reply)
This is a normal post Yes, this natural fallacy irks me still, but I'm glad there is some acknowledgement : p

(I helped save b3ta! omnitruncatedkraken from Empire Algol, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 11:04, , Reply)
This is a normal post I don't mean this to be rude
but you seem to have a very short-sighted way of viewing these problems.

Cars are not the problem, burning fossil fuels is the problem. People need to get around, always have, always will.

Saying that we should stop building cars is to entirely miss the point. Build electric cars that are charged via renewable energy sources. Put your energy into finding alternatives and actions that let us have the best of both worlds - it's not selfish to want to be happy and to be able to do the things you want to do. It is selfish to do such things in the knowledge that you are harming others, and doing absolutely nothing to mitigate it.

In this particular case I can hold my head up high, as I've founded a company that does car sharing, and efficient allocation of car stock etc. but in general, I think that as the human race is already trying to solve most of these problems, you don't need to be actively involved in the solution in order to do it with a clear conscience.

So looping back to the original premise - having children is not the problem. Not spending enough on research into space exploration, harnessing the power of the sun, and efficient food growth are the problems.

Humans are living creatures and want to do anything possible to survive and thrive, you can either sit back and say that that's a bad thing and wither away into nothing, or you can join the other amazing human beings who have come up with solutions to our problems that benefits everyone.
 (I helped save b3ta! HoratioFellatio Taking the the out of psychotherapist, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 14:37, , Reply)
This is a normal post Man trapped in giant sealed septic tank, slowly filling with sewage:
"The shit filling up this tank is NOT what's threatening to drown me, it's the lack of foresight to research the possibility of building other septic tanks we can then fill with shit"

....glub glub glub
 (I helped save b3ta! Tab Hunter Make this useless process end and so, begin again, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 16:07, , Reply)
This is a normal post Man trapped in giant sealed septic tank, slowly filling with sewage:
Man figures out how to turn the shit tap off. Goes and builds another septic tank to live in that doesn't fill with shit, and leaves everyone else wallowing in the remaining shit arguing about who turned the tap on in the first place.
 (I helped save b3ta! HoratioFellatio Taking the the out of psychotherapist, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 17:44, , Reply)
This is a normal post The logical conclusion of your argument, however, is that we nuke the planet from orbit
and return it to a barren sphere of rock and dust so that bad things can't possibly happen.

But the trouble is, neither can the good things. Life is inherently 'unfair' (whatever that means), and we all just muddle on through doing the best we can.

If everyone decided that they didn't want to reproduce, then the human population would be wiped out in roughly 100 years from that decision. Then what?

Global overpopulation isn't the problem that most people think it is. It won't continually increase exponentially ( www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_population_growth ), and even if it did, we'll have the ability to travel to and terraform Mars within the next century or so.

So whilst I completely respect your decision not to have kids, calling those that do 'selfish' is to create a false dichotomy. It isn't a question of massive overpopulation vs eradication of the human race.

I do agree that more should be done to encourage adoption, and have considered it quite actively myself (my daughter was an IVF baby, on the 5th time of trying), but one could argue that your decision to not have kids, but then also choose to not adopt an unwanted child is hypocrisy...

Just a thought... :)
 (I helped save b3ta! HoratioFellatio Taking the the out of psychotherapist, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 9:49, , Reply)
This is a normal post My choice to not adopt.
Is based entirely on the fact that I'd be a fucking terrible parent, and I don't feel it's fair to put that burden on a child. The dogs and the girlfriend are about the limits of what I feel I'm capable of sustaining a healthy environment for :)

Plus, as much as I don't hate children, I'm not massively fond of them either.
 (Huw Edwards #notalljews, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 10:12, , Reply)
This is a normal post "The logical conclusion of your argument, however, is that we nuke the planet from orbit"
...it really isn't.
 (I helped save b3ta! Tab Hunter Make this useless process end and so, begin again, Thu 16 Mar 2017, 11:00, , Reply)
This is a normal post The logical conclusion, reductio ad absurdum more like.
Terraform Mars? That might take THOUSANDS of years.

Some of us are making a personal choice to reduce suffering by not reproducing, now.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that a small child is one of the best disease vectors known.
 (I helped save b3ta! FeralCatMan Unusual disease collector., Thu 16 Mar 2017, 15:19, , Reply)