You're saying there aren't say, hetero men who are happy to take 'women's' roles?
Or women who are 'macho' or aggressively ambitious.
Sensitive men who nurture v powerful women who lead etc. etc.
In my eyes, part of the problem is the need to divide complex behaviours into easy binaries.
Why not stop worrying about other peoples trouser parts or indeed where they put them.
I'm too pissed for this.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 4:59,
Reply)
this was more my point, FCM
most feminine behaviour and roles you don't have to dress up or have surgery, you can just do it. In the modern world nobody forces you to chop wood or sew buttons. It's only really if you want to get woman reaction in others that you need to dress-up, but as per my point above about most blokes making startlingly ugly woman, you won't get that experience anyway, at least by the public.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 5:18,
Reply)
What if dressing up makes them feel pretty?
I dress the way I dress because I like how it makes me look. I really couldn't give a toss what anybody else thinks. Do you?
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 8:43, Reply)
people that don't care anything for what others think of them are sociopaths,
but I find most people who claim it are liars who are in reality acutely aware and concerned about how they're perceived and their status, and claiming it is just another bit of self-aggrandising.
but as to transgender, i thought it went a bit deeper than simply delight at cross-dressing and they were after the (debatable) experience of being treated as a woman. hence all the insistence on pronouns and what not. maybe I'm wrong
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 14:31,
Reply)
'people that don't care anything for what others think of them are sociopaths'
No, they're not.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 17:23, Reply)
*clears throat*
"a person with sociopathy (a non-clinical term now commonly called antisocial personality disorder) disregards the wishes, rights, and feelings of others"
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 23:18,
Reply)
No, sociopathy is an inability to empathise.
They have fewer 'mirror' neurons which activate when neurotypical people view others.
Whether someone cares about what others think is different, asocial or perhaps the very introverted people might pay little attention.
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 21:32,
Reply)
it's not a clinical term, so it's definition is rubbery
but I'll concede totally disregarding the opinion of others is not the only criteria that makes someone a sociopath, lack of empathy, manipulation, can be part of it too.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 1:27,
Reply)
The conversation here has ended up focused on attractiveness
... but is focusing on the wrong area, IMO.
The fallacies here are that many respondents to Cumquat are taking at face value the idea that a trans woman is literally a “woman’s soul” in a male body, who therefore has broadly similar feelings about being perceived by others as any other woman.
This is totally incorrect, because whatever nonsense you actually believe about being trans, no human being has the ability to know enough about the internal experiences of another group of humans to be able to say “I belong in that category, even though based on my sex I am not in that group”
So any male who transitions is *by definition* attempting to project an external version of themself that reflects not “what it is to be a woman” but “I am demonstrating that I belong in the opposite sex category”
There are a number of reasons for this, from actual gender dysphoria/intense discomfort with their sexed body, right up to the thing that apparently can’t be mentioned anymore of cross dressing men with fetishes who have had the green light from organisations that have lost the plot to play it out in public.
I think Cumquat is actually valid in talking about the appearance; not because of ugliness but because while men get to see an obvious male in a dress and give themselves progressive points for thinking “I see her as a woman because I’m good”, women see an obvious male and get called bigots and TERFs if they decide they want some spaces reserved based on sex.
And once that slips, you have the crazy Laurel Hubbard situation where, even on B3ta, men were falling over themselves to not understand that male people are physiologically different from women and that sexism is based on sex...
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:09, Reply)
'if they decide they want some spaces reserved based on sex.'
This is going a little off topic, perhaps. But if we're to exclude trans-women from female Toilets/Changing Areas etc, then shouldn't we also be excluding homosexual women? Where does the line get drawn? Should homosexual men be permitted to change in female changing rooms? Perhaps that would make certain heterosexual men more comfortable?
Do we allow trans-women into women's changing areas once gender reassignment surgery is complete? Or does Cumquat have to first decide if they appear sufficiently feminine?
The question is somewhat rhetorical because it's a hugely complicated issue, and I don't suspect we're going to find a solution for it on here. Although, I feel the answer might lie in just taking a overall more liberal approach to these kinds of situations. Mixed changing rooms with discrete shower cubicles, for example.
As for shared toilets, I couldn't really give a fuck. I don't particularly want to hear anybody else shitting. That person's biological construction has absolutely no relevance to me in that regard.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:01, Reply)
Homosexual women are female
So they belong in female spaces.
Male people are not female. So female people have the right to object to male people in female spaces.
And by “spaces” I refer to not just physical spaces, but all the spaces people can occupy.
Would an “all women shortlist” consisting of only trans women serve any purpose?
Does a male person belong in the female category in the olympics?
Does my grandmother have the right to have intimate care delivered by a nurse who is the same sex as she is?
These are only hugely complicated issues if you find the idea of saying “no” to unreasonable demands from male people to be complicated
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:13, Reply)
No, I'm not saying that. Not at all.
What I'm saying is that men who might want to stay at home with the children and/or wear make-up or women who might prefer rugby and/or steelworks are still just men and women respectively.
I'm trying to say that the idea of a gender-specific activity is beginning to fall out of favour (because there's nothing wrong with a stay-at-home-husband or a lady bricklayer) and this makes me think that people who 'come out' as non-binary are simply seeking attention.
I'm too pissed for this too, but I still think we're actually on the same page.
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jonbob loves you, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:08,
Reply)
for me, men lost our unique gender role when we stopped being able to split our enemies heads open with an axe for fun and profit
all the rest is just quibbling about minutiae
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 14:43,
Reply)
Those roles of which you speak
Are not “women’s roles”; they’re roles expected of women. So a predisposition to carrying out a role - other than reproductive - associated with the opposite sex only really shows that sex stereotypes are shit, not that the person wanting that role is “feminine” or maybe not even a man
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:29, Reply)