It would only be conflation of sex and gender
If I accepted that “woman” *is* referring to gender, while “female” refers to sex.
That isn’t actually the case. The most widely used definition of “woman” is still “adult human female”, and neither trans activism nor anyone on this thread has actually provided a non-circular definition of “woman” that carries meaning about what such an identity actually comprises.
Conflation of sex and gender is in using the idea of a gender identity - let’s say, a male person identifying as a woman, and then using that identity to argue that the identity qualifies such a person to access spaces, services, political movements created based on sex.
As I am being perfectly clear about what I mean when I use each term, I’m not conflating anything.
Again, I’ll ask - what is a male person saying about himself if he says “I am a woman”?
I would argue that such a male person is actually saying “I have a personality that matches what I think is appropriate for the opposite sex” - the *act* of identifying as a woman *is* THE conflation of sex and gender upon which every other conflation builds. A male person isn’t a female person, so what *is* the identity to which he claims, and what are these “women’s spaces” that, as you are arguing, exist with respect to needs that arose based on having the gender identity “woman” and not on being an adult human female person?
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:44, Reply)
If “woman” is a gender identity, then “man” also is.
I have never experienced having a gender identity. I don’t believe I have one.
Can you outline what it would look like if I did, and can you clarify whether you
* think I am still a man
* think that in the absence of a gender identity I am actually non-binary
* whether I should, in day to day life, consider that anything I read or hear that pertains to “men” is something I should disregard, since I don’t have the gender identity “man”, and wouldn’t know what one was anyway?
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:56, Reply)
Your logic isn't logic.
What you think follows from your assumptions probably doesn't. This makes it hard to follow your thought patterns and arguments.
(
brb Monkhouse Stampede, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 15:49,
Reply)
Indeed
There are very clear definitions for both words, no matter what any of us here think, or are willing to accept.
I've got better things to do than go back and forth with someone who won't even accept the meanings of words and is willing to contradict themselves to avoid any possible deviation from their pre-conceived position.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 17:38,
Reply)
Eh? I’m perfectly willing to accept definitions of words
What then *is* the definition of “woman” that I’m missing? Nobody has provided one. “It’s a gender” isn’t a definition, it’s an evasion of one.
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 19:16, Reply)
So it's not a red herring any more?
Why is “It’s a gender” an evasion of an answer? What do you mean by that?
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brb Monkhouse Stampede, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 19:35,
Reply)
Because as yet
Nobody has been able to say what the “gender” of “woman” comprises, and in which way it is a discrete category; by the logic used, “man” is also a gender, rather than the noun for an adult human male. So what is the difference between the genders of “man” and “woman” - what constitutes a “man” gender, what constitutes a “woman” gender?
Without actually being able to say what differentiates the genders, the concept of “woman as gender identity” males no sense: if woman is a gender identity, what *is* it? Trans activism can’t say - all it actually means is that it’s a word that male people can claim if they want it. In which way do these genders map onto sex in a way that makes a compelling case for a gender identity to overwrite and determine sex categories, as in the case of Hubbard.
Trans activism has no answer to this question, because answering it would mean conceding that it is referring to femininity and masculinity.
What *is* this innate sense of gender identity that is/was shared by Mo Mowlam, Katie Price, Megan Rapinoe, Hedy Lamarr, Caitlyn Jenner, Queen Elizabeth, Margaret Thatcher, Mariah Carey and Tilda Swinton? What do they all have in common? If they *dont* have anything in common, what is the usefulness of this idea that they have a shared gender identity? Are you able to give, say, five examples of things that characterise people with the gender identity “woman” and five things that categorise the gender identity “man”, without using sexist stereotypes? I can guarantee that you can’t, and without it, the idea that “woman” is a gender word but doesn’t have any intrinsic meaning is *literally* male people appropriating a useful term - the word for female humans - and stripping it of meaning for the benefit of male people.
My point is that they don’t have a shared gender identity - most of the people listed above have in common that they are *female*, and so use “woman” in the common understanding as the word to describe adult female humans, while one of them uses the word to describe that they believe they have a woman’s inner sense of self. That person however, has no ay whatsoever of knowing what it is to experience life as a female person, so “gender identity” remains a nebulous belief system.
Feel free to take it out of the realms of the nebulous and into something substantial by explaining what constitutes a “woman” gender identity….
(, Tue 17 Aug 2021, 12:09, Reply)
I see your problem (without reading all that bollocks, seriously tl;dr)
You say "“man” is also a gender, rather than the noun for an adult human male."
But it's both! A lot of words that describe sex also describe gender, and vice versa.
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brb Monkhouse Stampede, Tue 17 Aug 2021, 14:05,
Reply)
Then what is it describing when used to refer to “gender”?
You’re now saying man means “sex” AND “gender”, while saying that I am the one conflating the terms, and yet you can’t actually say what differentiates the gender “man” from the gender “woman”
Yes, my post is long. Because unpacking trans activism’s obfuscation requires patience and scrutiny of implications. So let’s hear it - what does the “gender” of “man” entail? What good reason is there to use a word that is associated with sex to describe one’s experience of self? What purpose is served by using this - apparently differing - concept, as a qualifying status into spaces and services that were clearly designed for members of a sex, rather than an internal sense of self that -apparently - isn’t about sex?
(, Wed 18 Aug 2021, 10:00, Reply)