Ooh, ooh, I'll try!
Israeli news channel interviewing him regularly, in regular contact with someone, that's hardly something that someone who wishes to demonise another person does, is it?
Israeli medical services taking the injured, this isn't just propaganda (though in this case partially is, undeniably), but Israeli hospitals take thousands of sick Gazans each year (as well as Gaza being on the Israeli power grid, all these blackouts you hear about only affect part of the strip, the rest is subsidised by the Israeli tax payer).
Are either of those the behaviour of the big bad evil Zionist?
Israeli troops wouldn't fire at a building for no reason, yes, they weren't being responsible, but they wouldn't waste ammunition on a target that didn't exist. Sure, they were idiots and went for a bit of reckless overkill, but what about the man firing from the top of a residential building in the first place; was he exactly a saint?
The obviously didn't directly target his family, otherwise they'd've probably caused a fair bit more damage, he's just a poor sod who got stuck on the wrong end of an overreaction, which may I add was most likely due to scared shitless 18-21 year old soldiers, to someone who was firing at them from a residential building in the first place.
Though, despite all that, my heart in this case really goes out to that poor guy; it really is a shame that any of this has to happen. And yes, occupation occupation, but even if Israel did (let's hope) withdraw from the West Bank and set up reasonable infrastructure there Hamas wouldn't stop, don't kid yourself, they're not a rational organisation.
(Side point: Not addressed to you, but people ask why the Palestinians should have to suffer for the Holocaust, well, Tel Aviv was built long before the Holocaust, Be'er Sheva long before the Holoaust, there have been Jews there since well, well before the holocaust, the 1929 Hebron Massacre happened, well, before the holocaust ('42), the Balfour declaration happened in 1917. Also, people who think the Arab population are some poor innocent people ignorant of the Holocaust and European history, bullshit, Hezbollah use the Fascist Salute and then there's this man:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni
In short he: Was the Sunni Grand Mufti of Jerusalem during the war.
Declared the concept of a Palestinian Nation
Recruited Muslims into the Waffen SS during the war.
Asked for help creating a genocide of Jews in the Arab World.
Spent the war in Berlin.
Yes, poor innocent bastards, totally ignorant of European near history.)
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:01, Reply)
overkill
the first thing to strike me is there's one guy on a roof with a gun shooting. There are probably other people in the building other than him, what the heck, lets just bomb the whole bloody thing 'chances are everyone else inside is a militant'. discuss...
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:24, Reply)
I'm an officer
leading a group of soldiers. Someone is firing at my lads, their lives are at risk, oh, he's on top of the building, what's a sure fire way of killing this guy?
Discuss...
Also, they didn't bomb the whole bloody thing, as you can clearly see in the video, there's a family and camera crew all walking round it perfectly fine. Someone died in a tank shell explosion, armoured support, probably the only way they had of getting that sniper anyway (what's the alternative, Negev machine gun? Yeah, 'cos that's not gonna spray bullets everywhere); it's a shame they got hurt in the explosion, but it was hardly razing a building.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:28, Reply)
The thing that pisses people off is...
The inequality of it.
It's similar to:
I punch you in the face, one of your mates shoots me.
Then one of my mates shoots your mates, one of your mates fire ballistics.
Yeah there are a few twats firing rockets at Israel. But, the civilian casualty rate in reply is just not right.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:34, Reply)
keep
taking belligerent punches to the face
edit: from someone who's mandate is to kill you
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:39, Reply)
someone keeps punching you in the face
with THE INTENTION TO KILL YOU.
CONSTANTLY.
and all you're gonna do it punch back?
a nice metaphor to hold Israel to, but i doubt you'd do it.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 14:05, Reply)
It's not a civilian casualty rate in reply
Most of the dead have been Hamas terrorists. These people place themselves next to high density areas. They even proudly admit to their use of human shields (as was the case a few years ago when Israel regularly rings up well in advance (about 24 hours I believe) to tell they're going to destroy a home of a terrorist); in one case Hamas got a group of civilians to stand on the roof of the building so Israeli jets wouldn't blow it up. Of course, their status as civilians is questionable, but they were hardly combattants at the time. Also, they got a horde of women in Burkas, another time, to wait outside a building then dressed the wanted man in a burka and smuggled him out; now you may think that's a fair ploy, but a ruse de guerre does not feature civilians.
I doubt how many of these civilian deaths are really civilian and not just Hamas fighters, with no uniforms, stripped of their weapons and paraded in front of the cameras as civilians.
Also 'Israel has killed x women and children' Women can fight too, you know, and children can be given weapons. Anyone under 18 is a child, well, it's hardly beyond belief to have a 16 or 17 year old fighter is it? But when these fighters get killed suddenly they become the poor innocent oppressed women and children.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:42, Reply)
Or maybe I tell it to my friend
who nearly got blown up by a missile in Be'er Sheva.
I don't want civilian deaths, but when someone's trying to kill my comrades I sure as hell know what I want to do to Hamas, and if one Gazan lady dies, then it's a shame, but I'd rather she died than one of my friends.
I know it's trendy in this country to support the perceived underdog, but the champagne socialists here are playing with other people's lives based off propaganda and limited knowledge. What do you know of what's happened in the Democratic Republic of Congo in the past 40 years off the top of your head? What's to say your knowledge of the Middle East is any better? I know people there, I have ties there, I have direct links and up to date knowledge of the area, and I have to say, it's a whole lot different than the image painted in this country.
I feel sorry for the dad, but when in war soldiers fire to defend themselves; it's as simple as that. It's a shame, but then again, war is a shame.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:48, Reply)
but on the other hand
Yes I will assume you know your stuff, you clearly do. Better than myself but that doesn't make you more right. I'm of the camp that doesn't agree to forced seizure of land in '67. I mean, can you not understand why Palestine is pissed off at Israel? I don't condone violence in any form, and therefore the actions of either belligerent. But I don't think the IDF should be there. Also it worries me that you place different value on peoples lives.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:58, Reply)
The land before '67
wasn't Palestinian controlled; and was under far worse occupation from Egypt and Jordan.
Hamas is a wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition to Egypt's ruling elite and the Palestinians tried to overthrow the Hashemite kings, leading to Black September (after which there have been no problems in Jordan, funnily enough... welcome to the Middle East, got a problem? Flatten a town!)
It wasn't land seized from Palestinians, but from Jordan and Egypt.
I place different values on people's lives just as if someone pointed a weapon at your mother and a weapon and someone entirely different and asked you to make a decision (with no flipping of a coin) what would you do? It's not that they're Jews or Israelis that I place more value on their lives, but because they're my friends, my comrades, my tribe if you will. I wish I didn't have to, but at a time of war, I do.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:04, Reply)
But
It doesn't look like its much better for the Palestinians living there now than it was under Jordan or Egypt, how is this helping? Hamas firing rockets into Israel isn't, that's for sure, but kicking seven shades of shit out of everyone living there isn't either it seems. Would be nice if all parties could sort this out diplomatically (hah!). I just don't believe the population in that tiny area should be forced to live in a cage under the supervision of a country who seems angry that it exists in the first place.(a rash statement i know and general, and probably innacurate)
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:17, Reply)
How many Hamas Freedom Fighters do you think there is exactly?
And how can you know these things?
Are you there? Do you make the 'phone calls'?
Are you a human shield?
I Think that there is an awful lot of civilian casualties, no matter who may, or may not be, telling porkies. Based on the fact that those flats I watched being blown up Here Could not have been soley populated by Hamas.
On another note, leaflets(stating their intentions)were not dropped by the Israeli army until the ground offensive started, according to most press reports. So civvis could not have known about what was going to happen in the first instance.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:53, Reply)
One friend of mine made the phonecalls
another currently listens to Hamas phone conversations.
I'm not a human shield, I'm a target.
Also I'll Gaz you the article some other time, BBC may have to do, but it's of the organised human shield tactic.
Israel didn't drop leaflets because they had set up an entire propaganda campaign of misinformation. The head of defence even went on a satirical TV show mocking the concept of a war; the next day all Hamas were exactly where the Israelis expected to be and the first day had massive Hamas losses to relatively few civilian casualties; the 60 miltia/police deaths, for example.
It would be interesting to see over what period the civilian deaths occured.
Vidoes not loading, could you find a mirror? And why wouldn't these blocks be entirely Hamas? And if they're not, what are Hamas doing in the same blocks as civilians? We know full well they can afford to take however much Gazan land they choose.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:59, Reply)
Well that would bring me back to my first point...
How many Hamas freedom fighters were there at the start of this? And why wouldn't they live like normal people in normal Gazan flats?
Also, how rich do you think they are? If there is so many of them how far would the wealth go?
The video stream seems to be faulty. I'll see if I can find it elsewhere... it's a live webcam set up somewhere.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:13, Reply)
well yes
I understand that from the IDF perspective, and probably any modern army perspective that was the obvious course of action. The fact this was the only course of action - and the relatively high risk of civilian casualties that seem to be the trend in this conflict, is pretty sad really. Bugger all we can do, seems like they've got bored for now.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:43, Reply)
Agreed
I just wish people would stop believing Hamas gives a shit about civilian populations.
These are people that conducted suicide bombings on children's birthday parties. They don't give a fuck about anything other than their own power, wealth and glory. They're basically like the 'gangsts' you get shooting the shit out of each other in South London; only they have Iranian made rockets instead of Glocks.
The cease fire can only hold if the World turns its back on Hamas.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:50, Reply)
OOOHH Don't get me wrong.....
I'm not saying hamas give a shit about anyone. They are after all, followers of the 'Religion of Perpetual Anger'.
But the fact that Israel seem very swift to sink to that level doing pretty much that same thing, with more advanced weapons.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:59, Reply)
Pretty much the same thing... not quite
Israel is aiming at Hamas, Hamas is aiming at civilians. The thing is the end result is still high Palestinian deaths, so it's not the solution I'd like either, but we've already seen Hamas isn't going to stop any time soon, so how do you handle it? There are a number of ways, but Hamas is not the fluffy organisation it's made out to be in this country. Not even remotely fluffy at all.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:07, Reply)
Where are you getting that from......
Who in their right mind would think that either side is fluffy? Both don't value normal life...
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:18, Reply)
it truly is shit when innocents die
but in a cynical way, the more innocents that die, the more support hamas gets in the rest of the world.
their actions really don't show that they try to protect their civillians... at all.
in fact quite the opposite, it seems like it's baiting Israel... and using their own population as a shield.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:38, Reply)
I totally agree...
I feel terrible for the innocent civilians that are being destroyed by the actions of both hamas AND israel- both of whom have no qualms spilling the civilians blood for their own political advantage.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 7:42, Reply)
The watchword here is "Disproportionate response"
I can't and won't deny that Hamas are, at best, fucking morons (and at worst, violent zealots). I can't and won't deny that them constantly launching rockets into Israel is a crime that warrants a response, possibly even a military one. But what we've seen over the past month or so is the IDF crossing the line. Their campaign has killed hundreds, possibly thousands, of innocent Palastinian civilians. Artillery strikes against known residential areas. Bombing runs against hospitals. White Phosphoros shells fired at a UN humanitarian base. And why? Because some 14 year old with a head full of extremist tripe took a couple of 7.62mm pot-shots at a tank or something. The IDF have been hitting any sort of resistance at all with the biggest damn hammer they have to hand. And now, live on national TV, the people of Israel have been shown the results of indiscriminate attacks such as this. The attacks their government has ordered.
I have absolutely nothing against the Israeli people. The vast majority of them are just people trying to go about their lives, just like the vast majority of Palestinians. I am coming to a serious dislike for their government though, and the war crimes they seem to be committing. Because that is precisely what a "disporportionate response" is. Google it if you don't believe me, I'm sure others will explain it better than I ever could.
If things carry on like this, one of two things are going to happe. Either the IDF are going to effectively eradicate the Palestinian people (making them guilty of genocide) or some whacko zealot is going to turn Jerusalem into a half-mile wide crater of glowing glass. I find it terrifying that neither side seems to be able to see this.
On a side note in response to yours, yes al-Husayni was a fundamantalist nutcase. But some of the Jews from that time weren't much better...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
(
Kerrisis There's someone in my head, but it's not me., Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:53,
Reply)
I don't dispute the Irgun or the Stern gang
I just wish people would stop referring to Palestinians as suffering for European Guilt. The Arab elite at that time were well and truly part of European affairs. The image of them as innocents is an entirely new propaganda invention.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:00, Reply)
You know what else is an entirely new propaganda invention?
Megaphone.
giyus.org/
It's pretty rich you trying to call propaganda when this kind of crap is going around.
(
gronkpan, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:16,
Reply)
But at least they're not making stuff up
this is just a way of getting people to act on a single issue on the internets.
They're not reinventing history with accounts of a Palestinian state being stolen away in '67 or total ignorance of near history.
There's a different between mass action and bullshit.
(, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:18, Reply)
I'm sure you can work that one out in your mind
but I'm out here with everyone else.
Could you please go into some more detail about how israeli media manages to be 100% truthful?
(
gronkpan, Mon 19 Jan 2009, 3:53,
Reply)
What about the Palestinian civilians who were told by Israeli forces to leave their homes
and were then gathered up and shot?
Your Government has been accused of war crimes by the UN. They will be held accountable. Let's face it, you've shoved over a million people into a ghetto, have removed their right to move freely, prevented food, aid and medical supplies from entering, shot at civilians for the most minor of transgressions, and now you think you have the upper hand you are slaughtering them, all the while blaming THEM for the fact they are being killed.
Remind you of anything?
(
Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Mon 19 Jan 2009, 4:48,
Reply)