New AND improved
How can it be both?

Apologies if it's bindun.
(GingerIrishTosser isn't dead yet., Tue 9 Oct 2012, 9:25, 14 replies)

Logically,
it can't be anything else.
(username failed moderation, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 9:52, closed)

Logically its either/or.
Its either new, or its improved.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 10:06, closed)

If I bring out some software, and then I bring out v1.1, which fixes some bugs
would v1.1 not be both new and an improvement over v1.0?
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 10:19, closed)

No.
It would be new.

If you improved 1.0 and still called it 1.0, it would be improved.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 10:21, closed)

If it's improved
it's not the same as the one before it, therefore it is new.

Of course, the improved bit is a matter of opinion.

Windows Vista was new, but . . .
(username failed moderation, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 10:38, closed)

If I make changes to v1.0 it is no longer v1.0, it has become something qualitatively different
any act of improvement would create something "new"
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 10:49, closed)

So you agree with me, then.

( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 10:59, closed)

I agree with you that if you make a change to a physical thing
Like, say, you tune up a car's engine, then it is improved, but it is not new. Or if you replace the engine it is new, but not improved. However, if we're talking about the formula to make a brand of washing powder, we're into different territory. As soon as you make a change to improve it, it is no longer the same formula. It has become a different formula, which is new. It's also an improvement over the previous formula. Hence, new and improved.
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 11:54, closed)

Improved when?
Once improved. Newly improved. Something.
(uncle_bud is not the jelly roll king., Tue 9 Oct 2012, 16:25, closed)

More of the same really
but it isn't, right?
(ed-z, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 12:37, closed)

It could be
new and shit.
(Mork, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 10:10, closed)

Another good one is "Sure and certain hope", from the standard Christian funeral service
If it's "Sure and certain," then it's not hope, in my dictionary, it's prediction or even knowledge. "Hope" implies an outcome that is in doubt.

Clearly religion has bigger problems that this, but it always strikes me as an odd phrase.
(moon monkey is busy making memories worth repressing, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 12:11, closed)

Clearly religion has bigger problems that this, but it always strikes me as an odd phrase.
(GingerIrishTosser isn't dead yet., Tue 9 Oct 2012, 12:32, closed)

granted i understand you dont actually want to hear this
products have to undergo a certain level of change (improved ingredients, less preservative, new pack etc) to be allowed to be called 'new' then they are only allowed to carry 'NEW' for 6 months

naturally this is positioned as in improvement 'better taste etc'

shoppers only have a seconds to take in messaging on products and certain words motivate them

in promotional marketing nothing works as well as the words FREE, WIN, CASH, HOLIDAY

this means we have this odd language, you will seldom see 'LESS than HALF PRICE' these days as focus groups were simply registering LESS and seeing it as a negative - so now its EVEN BETTER THAN HALF PRICE

which admittedly is quite irritating

unsurprisingly - i work in advertising and marketing. having listen to the 'wisdom' of focus groups for many years i come to realise this:

there is a HUGE proportion of shoppers who are REALLY FUCKING DIM (mainly ASDA shoppers)

so for their benefit the rest of us have to put up with being grunted at like cavemen
( spimf ™ is whoever you want him to be, Tue 9 Oct 2012, 14:25, closed)