Police shooting
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8262629.stm

I remember this very well, mainlt because the chap that got shot was originally from our little market town. What confuses me is the following:

"A statement issued by Elizabeth Saunders' solicitor said: "Elizabeth now awaits the inquest which will consider in public why it was necessary for police officers to shoot her husband. "

Could the answer be because he was armed with a shotgun, he was taking potshots at people walking past, the houses across the road and at police officers?

Just wondering.
( SpikeyPickle wishes he was mabazaritchie, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:21, 37 replies, latest was 16 years ago)

What does 'taking armed with a shotgun' mean?

(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:29, Reply)

Edited just for you x

( SpikeyPickle wishes he was mabazaritchie, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:50, Reply)

WTF!
I feel for her, because her fella flipped his lid and now he's dead, but I don't think she can go blaming the bizzies.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:30, Reply)

You understand why The Coroner is obliged to hold an inquest whenever someone is killed by the Police whilst in the execution of their job don't you?

(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:31, Reply)

Tell me you understand why this is sensible.
For the love of God, please tell me you understand.
(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:31, Reply)

The inquest isn't the problem.
Of course there has to be an inquest. I'm more worried about his poor deluded widow.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:32, Reply)

I was replying to
What confuses me is the following:

"A statement issued by Elizabeth Saunders' solicitor said: "Elizabeth now awaits the inquest which will consider in public why it was necessary for police officers to shoot her husband. "


What's confusing about that? We are all awaiting the verdict of the Coroner's court. The inquest will decide if the killing was lawful or not.

I'm glad that the Coroner has a statutory obligation to hold an inquest, in public, with a jury to determine if the death was lawful or not. I think it's sensible and self-explanatory.
(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:35, Reply)

I dunno where
but there's something in there that makes me think she just might think it WASN'T necessary. Now in some cases, like a bloke leaving his flat and catching a train, I'd beconfused, but this one looks pretty cut-and-dried
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:38, Reply)

Perhaps it wasn't necessary.
Shoot-to-kill is a tad extreme, don't you think?
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:39, Reply)

They are. (EDIT: I mean 'it is a tad extreme'.
This is the first one in years where I've thought "Fair play, there was nothing else you could do."
If left there, there was a chance he could have killed someone. Tranquilizer thingies work in the films, but I'm not sure if they are ever used by police or if they'd even work. If he'd shot someone I know I'd have been well pissed off with the bizzies.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:43, Reply)

(Sorry, that was me ninja-ing out the word "policies")
But even if there was nothing else they could do, it still warrants investigation to show that there was nothing else they could do.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:46, Reply)

I agree.
Somewhere in it I just thought the widow was implying that there might be some other outcome. And I really do doubt it.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:47, Reply)

I'm not sure if you have ever shot much
but shoot to wound is not really possible in most cases. If they tried to hit a moving person in a non-lethal place there would be a good chance that the best trained shooter would miss and put someone else at risk. Also, considering the shock a shooting victim goes into no matter where they are hit by a high powered rifle, what we think as a non-lethal shoot can kill. That's why tasers can be better than guns but it doesn't sound as if they would have worked in this case.

Hope I don't sound like a gun crazed american
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:00, Reply)

You do, but that's why we love you.

( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:12, Reply)

Ahh. I'm touched
(in the good way although I'm probably also touched in the bad way)). I'll make sure I don't aim at you when I go postal and climb a tower and start shooting people with my constitutionally allowed fully automatic assault rifle!
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 17:06, Reply)

I tend to avoid guns.
Side effect of being Norn Irish, despite how the jokes go. Also might explain why I'm somewhat dubious about shoot-to-kill scenarios.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:16, Reply)

Well that's understandable kid...

( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:18, Reply)

Thankfully I've never had to live in any place
where the police/militials on both sides were quite like on N Ireland so I can't have the same, realistic perspective towards this that you do.

I actually am not a gun nut although I do like to hunt on occasion and used to target shoot (being brought up by a retired General).
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 17:10, Reply)

Whether it looks cut or dried is irrelevant.
Death's in police custody, Prison custody, army custody or caused by police claiming they acted in the course of duty have to have a Coroner's Inquest.
If a criminal charge has been made and a verdict reached, the verdict of the inquiry must be in line with the verdict in the Criminal case.

The Coroner's court doesn't hear any evidence that relates to blame, liability or issues of law, only fact. All it does is determine by what means the deceased came to die, when, where and their identity. It simply has to be shown (against the same standards of doubt as in any other court) what happened. It's a good thing and I don't see why it's worthy of note.
(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:45, Reply)

I knows they have to. I think they should.
I'm on about his missus. See above.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:48, Reply)

That was my point
Although it may not have been very well made.

Surely the fact that he was armed, shooting at people, buildings and police at random and not listening to repeated requests to lay down his weapon and give himself up lef the police with little option but to shoot.
( SpikeyPickle wishes he was mabazaritchie, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:54, Reply)

I thought that was what you meant and all
Spar
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:56, Reply)

Yes, but you'd hope that the facts would be displayed in public so that we could be assured of that wouldn't you?

(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:56, Reply)

OF COURSE I WOULD
I've said this to you about eleventy times now.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:02, Reply)

I'm not quite sure why you're replying to all my replies to SpikeyPickle with the same thing.
Perhaps you haven't grasped how the replies system on b3ta works.
(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:04, Reply)

Sorry, I did think you were talking to me there
And like I say, i was getting all narky. And now my feet stink a bit.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:07, Reply)

I am roota!
I'm not really, I'm just a work and she's usually replied saying pretty much what I would say by time I come back to reply to your questions.

Also, as this chap used to live in our little market town he still has family here. They were in the local press saying how it was a travesty, he wasn't posing a threat to anyone and that shooting him was an over-reaction.

Here the original story link from our local www.macclesfield-express.co.uk/news/s/1048778_barrister_died_in_shootout just in case you're interested
( SpikeyPickle wishes he was mabazaritchie, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:10, Reply)

I had your back
Even though I hate you, and now you've attempted to steal my identity.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:12, Reply)

You know what
If I was married to a barrister and the police shot them in a gunfight I'd be pretty pissed off.

I expect they're probably all covering for each other to the extent that even if they had done something wrong and the CPS decided it wanted to do something about it we'd end up in the same place, with nobody to blame and no investigation other than that demanded by statute, the Coroner's Inquiry, which as well all know, can't assign blame to anyone anyway.

Yeah, I'd be pretty pissed off.
(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:55, Reply)

I know perfectly well what they're capable of
And normally I smell a rat, but in this case I don't.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:59, Reply)

If I'm being honest
I just wanted to regurgitate as much as I could about Coroner's Inquests so that you'd all think I was clever.
(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:03, Reply)

ha, why didn't you say!
I was getting a big cob-on and my feet are all hot now!
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:05, Reply)

I take it all back
please don't crush me against a wall with a HONDA ACCORD.
(Richard Earl of Cambridge Cruel, Savage, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:05, Reply)

I'm not a Honda Accord Warrior!!
I did travel to London in one last month, but that's about it.
Do you have me confuzzled with someone else. And if you say you thought I was a bloke, you'll be the second one today. *sigh*
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:08, Reply)

Honda accords are passé.
Green minded people now use Hybrid Honda Civics.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 17:12, Reply)

it kind of worked
in spite of myself, and in the face of seeing how much of a grumpy bastard 40 years of criminal law made my dad, I still find it rather hearing about the law from people who work with it.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 14:08, Reply)

Did you use
"in the execution of their job" ironically?

(In the US there woudl be a very short investigation of this but nothing would happen. I like the English method better. We have a lot of trigger happy cops but then we also have millions of guns readily available for anyone.)
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 13:54, Reply)