True
don't get me wrong, I acknowledge you know a lot more than me in all liklihood, a vast quantity more, but that's never a valid reason for just automatically agreeing
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:06, 1 reply, 15 years ago)

Oh, I'm not saying you should necessarily agree with me.
Nor would I claim to know more about it than you do. I'm just curious as to why you believe we're not entirely driven by a pack mentality.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:08, Reply)

Because all of the examples
that are given that supposedly 'prove' this are not *necessarily* attributable to a pack mentality (referring to the post above) though of course they can be. And if we were driven by a subconscious pack mentality, I'd expect a lot more uniformity of response to distressful situations, to individual *and* group reactions to events. It seems pointless to claim a pack mentality then claim something like 'well it's different for everyone and we can't really prove that it's what drives individual actions'
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:12, Reply)

distressful?

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:25, Reply)

You do make a good point - just because something can be attributed to pack mentality, doesn't mean it's necessarily the correct explanation
However I think you've gone on to confuse pack behaviour with personality. The subtle nuances of personality will cause an individual to respond differently to a given situation - take your example of distress; you'll get a whole spectrum of responses from those who stoically try to remain calm down to those whose neuroses just drive them to rock back and forth in the corner waiting for it to end. But after this terrible event is over, observe how they all flock to one another or to their friends and relatives for mutual comfort. Disasters do seem to bring people together. And the community as a whole will probably agree that it was A Bad Thing. That's the mentality of the pack, rather than individual personality.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:27, Reply)

It makes a lot more sense I guess
if you attribute the term packs on a wider basis. I don't believe in a human pack i.e. us as a species, but on a small scale I can see how people bundle together, and their individual beliefs act as a trigger to join certain groups (Westboro Baptist Church springs to mind) that act as surrogate family groups. Packs still doesn't strike me as the right word though :S
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:30, Reply)

You don't really see humanity as a whole uniting as a pack
But you can cluster it into individual packs, as you rightly say. Look at football supporters, or the way communities respond to immigrants*, and you see the very primal roots of the pack mentality. Pack is possibly not the right word, but whatever you want to call it, I think it's fair to say that 'the Pack' is what it stems from.

*_{E.g., when the charlatans from /talk get bored of an afternoon and barge in here...}
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:35, Reply)

now that's not a fair example of pack mentality.
I'm a charlatan from talk.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

The example I cite
was the way everyone on here would band together to hurl insults at JMG when he came on here to take the piss out of us for being interweb-lolfatties.

And wasn't this board only created because assorted QotWers were afraid they'd be told to piss off back to /qotw if they tried to go somewhere for a conversation when the week's question was shit?
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:41, Reply)

yeah ... but that's not evolutionary pack behaviour as such
that's more what Amberl is thinking of. It's not really so relevant in an evolutionary sense because you defending yourself from JMG is not something that you'll do all your life to such an extent that defending themselves against JMG becomes something your offspring are predisposed to do. Actually, maybe it will? who knows?

I think the football supporters thing is a good one though, that can pass as a meme from parents to children, and is a strong social bond particularly in areas where maybe there is more social depravation.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:46, Reply)

True, I was just being facetious with that argument
Although I can envision a whole generation subsequently being born with an inherited neurotic response to being called a lolfatty.

I think the main thing about football supporters is the slightly chilling parallel between that and two packs of baboons or chimpanzees squaring up to one another. (And that's just their appearance, badum-tsssch!)
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:52, Reply)

I still maintain the most surreal experience of my life
was sitting on my own on a train in Bavaria that got steamed by a load of 1860 Munich fans after Bayern fans. The whole thing was just totalled around me, first by the fans and then by riot police. And German riot police don't fuck about. A lot of blood. And I was just totally ignored by everyone concerned. Weird.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:59, Reply)

That sounds fucking terrifying
The only thing more frightening than a mob of angry apes must surely be a mob of angry apes yelling in German.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 11:02, Reply)

talk was only created
to stop /board people throwing the dummy if a thread didn't have a picture in it. Board evolution, innit? ;)

board was only created because the internet was all fields *reminisces*
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:49, Reply)

mentality doesn't seem like the right word either

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

I'd say it's deeper seated than that
pack mentality from an evolutionary point of view is why we have schools, hospitals, etc. because why should everyone teach their children to count when one person can teach a hundred and the other 99 can do something else useful? It also plays to the strengths and weaknesses of a population - you're good a fighting? defend the village. You're good at counting? work out a bartering system so we can trade all the grain we have for meat which the next village has... etc etc.

pack mentality is arguably the most important single thing in humans reaching the position they are in now, good or bad.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:33, Reply)

I think you're right
Because without a pack mentality, there's no incentive to form any sort of society. And even packs of wild animals form a 'society' of sorts - even if it looks more like just a hierarchy, it does give a lot of credence to your argument.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

it does

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

I think Vipros has a good point
that "mentality" might not be the right word. Pack mentality has negative connotations, especially amongst the UK press. behaviour, maybe.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:41, Reply)

It does
From a purely technical point of view, I think is the right word, but there a lot of undesirable connotations you have to dissociate it from.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:45, Reply)

I'm not so sure
to me it implies that it is more of a conscious thing
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:46, Reply)