Good morning, peasants.
Tell me why I shouldn't have the lot of you flogged for insolence.

Alt Q: Is ill-mannered antagonist Dawkins right when he posits the idea that altruism is really only borne of genetically inherent self-interest?
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:32, 198 replies, latest was 15 years ago)

Because I would enjoy it?
Alt Q: no idea.
( girlinthehole, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:39, Reply)

You minx, you.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:42, Reply)

You have no idea
I can get her going just by telling her I'm 24.
(Himjim died a little more inside on, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:43, Reply)

I think it was more to do with the huge dildoes you showed me than your age.

( girlinthehole, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:44, Reply)

They were 24
too.
(Himjim died a little more inside on, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:59, Reply)

You're 24?
You old fart!
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:41, Reply)

Alt: I say no, not entirely.
There are what appear to me to be without doubt purely selfless acts committed every day that cannot merely be explained away by the 'selfish gene'.

I think Dawkins is a bit of a cock, despite my agreeing with most of what he has to say.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:40, Reply)

You can be right and still a dickhead.

( girlinthehole, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:42, Reply)

Thanks!

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:47, Reply)

Monty, you have started answering your own questions.
Are you turning into Gonz?
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:07, Reply)

I dnon't think sewe. Hopefullie knotte.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:44, Reply)

This reads like a 17th century manuscript!

( sporters I’m sincerely gratitude to you, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:56, Reply)

It doesn't mean 'selfishness gene'. That mistake crops up a lot.
It means, roughly, 'genes are dedicated to protecting their own existence/continuance'.
(Falstaff's Spiritual Successor, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:48, Reply)

Because I'm awesome?
I don't think so; it's a good theory to postulate, but I don't think the altruist benefits that much from giving his all to others.
(Himjim died a little more inside on, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:42, Reply)

I give my all to you lot every day and I get great benefit from all the love back I receive.

( girlinthehole, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:43, Reply)

I agree.
If your genes really were making your every action a selfish one, then surely they'd make you act like a cunt rather than Mother fucking Teresa?
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:46, Reply)

Mother Teresa was a cunt.

(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:47, Reply)

Exactly
If you devote all your time to the welfare of other, who's going to look after numero uno?
(Himjim died a little more inside on, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:59, Reply)

Altruism can be mutually beneficial - take volunteering as an example - volunteers should enjoy what they do as well as making a positive contribution
Any attempt to have me flogged will result in my butler tracking you down for a spot of pugilism.
(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:43, Reply)

I'd direct the Alt Q to Enzyme
He'd know, and it would save time with all us ill informed people picking ideas out of thin air.

I normally deserve a flogging for something I've done, or am about to do, so flog away.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:43, Reply)

Enzyme is too busy having sex with his siblings
It's okay to do that you see.
(Bazongaloid, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:52, Reply)

Hahahahaha
It's a moral question then.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:06, Reply)

You nasty
Don't talk like that about Enzyme.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:07, Reply)

Because I'd whoop your geriatric ass.
alt q: no.
( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:56, Reply)

Because I am older and wiser and you should respect your elders.
Alt Q. I believe there is no such thing as an altruistic act. Even if you simply get an ego-stroke or a momentary feelgood for performing the act it cannot be altruistic in the strictest sense. This aside Dawkins is being a knob as usual, he is once again asserting something which cannot really be proven\disproven as in this instance it relies on the nature\nurture argument which is singularly incomplete and inconclusive.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:57, Reply)

Dr Feelgood?

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:44, Reply)

All night.

(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:00, Reply)

Selfless gene
Does doing nice things or performing selfless acts for others not have some ancient root from when we were all living in hunter gatherer groups? I pick bugs out of your hair if you get the meat in, type of thing?

Dawkins is a cock and sounds as zealous as the purveyors of the myths he wants to debunk which give him credibility issues. Despite my agreeing with him on most things (I'm sure he'll be pleased with that).
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 8:59, Reply)

I have no bugs on my hair
But even if I did and you picked them, I wouldn't let you get your meat in, you insolent.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:06, Reply)

One
Has to try!
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:07, Reply)

But not too hard
Or it'll hurt.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:13, Reply)

Haha

( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:10, Reply)

I don't know what flogged is
And the alt Q is too deep for this early.

I'm on holidays tomorrow :) I can't be unhappy today.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:04, Reply)

When are you ever unhappy?
Seriously, you bring cheer to us lot here, you should be more miserly!
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:09, Reply)

Oh, sorry about that
You see? I'm unhappy when people is upset with me, and that's a big problem as I say yes to everybody.

One of my cousins was upset with me for half a good reason. But she sent a mail today saying she's coming to the wedding and talking as if nothing had ever happened, and being lovely as she used to be.

I'm extra glad today.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:14, Reply)

I'm glad for you
You're always a refreshing change here, we're all either miserly, or taking the mick out of each other.

You're still one of my favourite b3tans! Although a large part of that is likely due to the Sangria...
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:37, Reply)

Hahaha!
I'm starting to get miserable now. I need chocolate. It's been a hard week, I have to do 10h today and I'm craving for a snikers. But there's nowhere to buy it. Nowhere!
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:43, Reply)

Snickers are shit
Mars, Boost or Twirl is where it's at.

No shops near you?
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:45, Reply)

No shops, no
And I hate all those chocolates you mentioned.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:07, Reply)

Really?
Dear me, you poor poor girl. You have never lived until you have enjoyed a Boost.

And Mars is just Snickers without the shit bits.
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:22, Reply)

I don't either of them, they both have caramel in them.

(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:24, Reply)

I think you'll find that Mars is Snickers without the bit that makes it good

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:24, Reply)

Flogging in the sense of:
Necesitas una flagelación duro.

What do you expect from Monty, he is not a nice man.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:14, Reply)

Oh, I see
Kinky...
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:15, Reply)

Morning Monty
It's because I'm fucking awesome, and my hatred, etc paints me as nowt but a younger version of you!

Alt Q: We can't really have altruism, as while many acts are viewed as selfless, they still give us pride to do, etc. Dying for someone is obviously different, but that could be argued that you want them to live, also selfish.
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:09, Reply)

I don't agree
I think it's still altruism. Ok, they give you something good, but not something better than if you didn't do it, therefore, knowingly, you're sacrificing something just to make someone happier; you're worst off on certain aspects, but you still do it because someone needs your help.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:19, Reply)

I'm in general agreement with AA here. about the Alt Q, anyway.
We always take something from any act of kindness that we perform. As it makes us feel better about ourselves.
(Cave Duck, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:29, Reply)

I tend to assume scientists are correct
unless I can be bothered to read their reasearch, then I pick it apart.
(PsychoChomp, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:15, Reply)

Poor you
I assume you are trying all type of "miracle" cures and creams, approved by scientists.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:20, Reply)

Nope, I'm a born cynic.
which means I generally don't believe anything. It also means I know that I couldn't come up with something to counter a point that Richard Dawkins made because:
a) He's studied the subject a lot longer than me
b) he's a professional scientist
c) he's probably thought of all counter arguments I would make
d) I had to look up the word altruism
(PsychoChomp, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:27, Reply)

Re (d): Why am I not surprised?

(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:34, Reply)

Because you think you're smarter than everyone else?

(PsychoChomp, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:35, Reply)

I had to Google it
Then couldn't be bothered going back and working out the rest of the sentence. That's proper lazy that is.
(PenguinOfDeath is Scottish, and most likely angry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:36, Reply)

It's a common currency word

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:37, Reply)

Maybe i dun read gud

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:37, Reply)

That is just rubbish.
It is not a common word.
(PsychoChomp, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:44, Reply)

Maybe not in the twelve fingered world of Milton Keynes

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:49, Reply)

Well according to this
It's over the 20,000th word.
www.wordcount.org/main.php
Actually that's a great website, I could spend all day on there. I know the least used word.
(PsychoChomp, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:55, Reply)

It's still higher up than windmill, and the case is closed
I was mildly disappointed that shitcunt didn't come up
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:00, Reply)

So do I and so will Abbi.

(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:04, Reply)

it's pretty commonly used in my job
usually caveated with "we are not here to be altruistic" however.
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:49, Reply)

The evidence mounts

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:51, Reply)

i'm a lawyer
how much more evidence do you need than right there in those three little words?
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:57, Reply)

Well now it gets the double lawyer seal of approval

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:01, Reply)

He's basically a professional author and religion-botherer these days.

( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:39, Reply)

Still holds that post at Cambridge doesn't he?
Anyway he probably does more science than me.
(PsychoChomp, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:46, Reply)

because this shower of perverts would enjoy it far too much
Can't really scroll through everything on my blackberry but I'm betting this has bindun many times already, thus proving my point!
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:17, Reply)

phwooooarrr

( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:20, Reply)

I assume you'd want to be flogged with a pink whip?

(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:22, Reply)

to match my pink fishnets?

( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:26, Reply)

and matching basque?

(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:27, Reply)

no
that's black with a pink trim. all-over pink is just barbara cartland, and noone wants to see that. also the pink boxing gloves match and they might hopefully help me squeeze my whaps back in it one of these days.

edit - not to be worn at the same time, though. that would be a very specified fetish.
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:33, Reply)

He certainly does. And he's looking suitably stunned.

(Cave Duck, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:36, Reply)

nice

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:37, Reply)

Too big
Ruined experience of b3ta at work.
Would not recommend
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:37, Reply)

POSTERS RESPONSE:
I always welcome constructive feed back and value your input.I'm sorry the that you were not happy with the picture posted. I do strive try to meet readers requirements whenever possible. However I would ask you to accept that pictures of Peter Noone looking slightly agog are not exactly plentiful on the internet, and that the time restraints involved did not allow for resizing on this occasion.
To go some way to compensate you, I would like to offer to post a photo on a subject of your choosing, free of charge.

Cave Duck
Customer Liason
(Cave Duck, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:45, Reply)

Or you could just resize it now

(PenguinOfDeath is Scottish, and most likely angry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:46, Reply)

Picture of your mum in the shower please.

(PsychoChomp, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:47, Reply)

You already have all of the ones you took before she discovered the camera concealed in the showerhead.

(Cave Duck, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:51, Reply)

I would like a picture
of badger on a bicycle juggling cheese
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:49, Reply)

What's that?
I'm required in a meeting and wont be able to post on here for a long time. By which time TGB will have forgotten all about this?
OK I'm on my way.
(Cave Duck, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:00, Reply)

Change that to width="290" height="210"
Should make it less obvious I'm on here
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:39, Reply)

Please add black knee high boots and long pink gloves to this outfit. But yes, ditch the boxing gloves

(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:38, Reply)

i do have some very slutty
patent shiny black knee high "leave-on" boots. no pink gloves though.

must google those.
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:44, Reply)

I wouldn't.
Or at least listen to "pink glove" by Pulp before you do.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:45, Reply)

ah
thank you for the tip
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:49, Reply)

The boots sound excellent. You should wear these to the next bash.

(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:54, Reply)

they are great
you are most welcome to borrow them if you like?
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:57, Reply)

careful
pink lamee is a shitter to get stains off.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:58, Reply)

it's ok
these are black shiny patent leather. totally wipe-clean.
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:01, Reply)

Size 9?

(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:02, Reply)

no
size 6. what do you think i am, some sort of flat giant footed platypus?! you'll just have to squeeze them in there.
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:16, Reply)

Only happened once so far

(Himjim died a little more inside on, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:32, Reply)

I don't know what all those long words mean in the Alt Q
But I am sure you want to know that today I have a mint YoYo in my lunchbox
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:26, Reply)

I'm dying for some chocolate today
But there's none to be bought here.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:33, Reply)

lunch

strikethroughs. Being big AND clever since 1975.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:41, Reply)

OLD

( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:44, Reply)

I might be old
but at least I'm not storing biscuits in my foof.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:46, Reply)

I wouldn't store biscuits in my foof either
the bats would eat them
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:47, Reply)

If I project a foof symbol into the night sky
do you turn up on my roof, then?
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:54, Reply)

Only if you're really really close to where I am

( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:56, Reply)

piss.

( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:57, Reply)

Mint yo-yos are gash.
Mint Viscounts are where it's at.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:01, Reply)

Bloody hell
do they still make those?
(berk, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:12, Reply)

yes
my mother bought some this morning
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:18, Reply)

Fucking winner
I haven't had one of them since I was about 9. I know what I'm getting the next time I go food shopping...
(berk, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:21, Reply)

alt q
didn't "friends" cover this when phoebe found a thumb in her cokecan? i think they came to the conclusion there are no selfless good deeds. and if it happens on "friends", it must be true.
( rachelswipe with a fork, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:32, Reply)

I don't think it was the thumb episode
I think it was when Joey whent on the PBS phoneathon.

The thumb episode was mainly about Chandler smoking.

Wasted life FTW
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:37, Reply)

I think those were the same episode
phoebe got her money because of the thumb and donated via the phoneathon

edit: nope, I'm wrong. you are right
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:38, Reply)

No she gave the money from the soda people to bribe chandler to stop smoking

( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:40, Reply)

you are correct

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:41, Reply)

I'm always correct

( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:42, Reply)

TGB correct, Vipros wrong
Matter settled, Vipros loses smug points.
(PenguinOfDeath is Scottish, and most likely angry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:41, Reply)

Also she got stung by a bee
And I think that was one of the cleverer ones (not difficult really), but the bit at the end where Phoebe is watching, sees Joey get congratulated for the largest donation, and says "Yay, that was my donation! Ohh, I'm so happy...DAMNIT!"

Not going to lie, I enjoy Friends, just not as much more than switch-your-brain-off telly
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:41, Reply)

I don't think it was the largest donation
I think it pushed them over the previous years takings
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:44, Reply)

Aye, that's the bastard

( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:52, Reply)

Because it won't do us any good, we're too stupid.

Alt Q: Serious discussion? Altruism for the purpose of long-term species self-interest is a massively debated concept amongst biologists, but I'd argue if it's for genetic self interest it isn't truly altruism. Dawkins chucks memes in the pot (memes by the biological definition rather than No Hands) because it's a nice extra fuzzy level of information and behaviour transfer and evolution other than genetic passage (which is "hard" transfer of info and characteristics)

The problem with that is people's interpretation of his work - he seems to some to be applying human characteristics (selfishness) onto an arbitrary unconscious process (evolution) which is, well, odd.

Oh, and the fact he's a bit of a cunt. A clever cunt, but still.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:38, Reply)

Serious? In the morning?
Shame on you. Bad badger
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:40, Reply)

But the students will be coming in a few minutes, Badge.
I need to be on my A-game.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:42, Reply)

The boxes will be coming soon
I have no need for any game
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:43, Reply)

trade ya?
Boxes probably don't moan about their marks, for a start.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:44, Reply)

The people who have the boxes moan about everything

( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:47, Reply)

Zen box masters.

( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:55, Reply)

They're also not great
At making any sort of attempt at conversation, unless she is in some amazing box factory.
(PenguinOfDeath is Scottish, and most likely angry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:48, Reply)

Alt Q: You have to be careful to draw the distinction between "altruism" and "individual altruistic acts"
Your own answer makes the very valid point that many people will do tremendously selfless things despite there being no obvious direct benefit for them. These are, however, individual acts of altruism and are borne of someone having a naturally more altruistic disposition (than the average cunt I share a train carriage with).

But now look at what makes them altruistic in the first place - we all are, to some extent (not meaning to slander your reputation) a little selfless. Whilst the obvious basis for this is in putting ourselves out for our relatives (we share similar genotypes with them and therefore by helping them, we improve the chances our survival of our similar genotypes), you have to also remember that we're pack animals.

This, you could argue, is why we put ourselves out for our friends (again, I'm generalising for the misanthropic gits among you): with friends, we form a little group or clique who we can rely on for help and support. Acceptance into this pack equals improved security, but in order to be accepted into the pack, we either have to win their favour or subjugate them. And for most of us, winning favour is a hell of a lot easier. Either way, it's driven again by genetic self-interest.

Now enlarge the circle of friends (I know, difficult to imagine for most of us), until you've started to turn into one of those irritating hippy-types who believe that we're all one and that everybody is everybody else's brother/sister (good news for Bert). Perhaps you go out of your way to help strangers because the warm glow of knowing you did Something Good has echoes of the instincts that drive you to be accepted by the pack, except this time it's a much larger and more impersonal pack.

I know I'm making a lot of assumptions in that last paragraph, but don't dismiss it out of hand - it's the same instinct that drives us to conform to fashions and do stupid and irrational things, for no other reason than that everybody else is doing it.

You may now flog me for that insolent outburst.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:45, Reply)

TL;DR

( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:48, Reply)

This is a more eloquent way of putting part of what I was trying to say.
We regard altruism as an individual, personal act, and an active decision, and Dawkins is talking about a subconsious predisposition that is driven by our genetic and memetic make up.

I had a long-running argument on here (well, /talk) with someone who just didn't "get" evolution, or rather thought they did, but were wrong. They wouldn't accept that "survival of the fittest" does not mean "strongest" or "healthiest" but more "best suited for purpose" ... so there potentially is an evolutionary advantage in helping the weak and sick long-term, for instance, if it conveys an advantage upon the human race or ecosystem as a whole.

(massive debate shortened for space)

Of course it doesn't help that "survival of the fittest" is a misquote anyway.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:52, Reply)

Help the weak just enough to work for you...
...but not enough to organise, desire more and rebel.
That is where cultures/empires fail.
(Tugnut Ex of this parish, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:58, Reply)

this reminds me of the main storyline of "A Bugs Life".
but then the ants realise they're actually stronger then the grasshoppers and stand up to them and it's just ACE.
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:00, Reply)

Kevin Spacey spoils that movie.
I hate his voice, theatrical pretensions and male pattern baldness - the big gaybo.
(Tugnut Ex of this parish, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:07, Reply)

you don't need to hide your true feelings around me dear, I know it's hard, but one day you're going to just have to come right out and admit that he gives you the raging horn.

(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:12, Reply)

I'm just not ready for that.

(Tugnut Ex of this parish, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:16, Reply)

it's okay darling, when you are, I'll be right here for you.

(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:19, Reply)

I just need a hug. *cries*

(Tugnut Ex of this parish, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:21, Reply)

Head over to blousies thread, it's full of huggers.
Shameless they are.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:48, Reply)

h b
(Tugnut Ex of this parish, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:56, Reply)

That depends on whether
you believe we are still driven by an entirely pack mentality
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:59, Reply)

darling, you can't have been to australia.
visit my school. See the feral packs swarming around.
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:02, Reply)

That doesn't explain those
who don't belong to the pack though. I think looking at examples of friendship and support no more proves that we're a 'pack' than we'd assume that because one person likes a head massage from another, that we've got a genetic memory of enjoying having fleas etc picked out by another member of the tribe
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:04, Reply)

this is a good point.
my school is undeniably feral though. I'mm glad I've got less then 17 days of classes left. getting away from those scrotes will be the best thing that's ever happened to me.
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:07, Reply)

Is your school like Mad Max....
...with thousands of 'punks' in Zandra Rhhodes outfits chasing poor Poppet on customised BMX bikes?
Cool.
(Tugnut Ex of this parish, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:12, Reply)

I fucking wish it was.
it's filled with girls who love fake tan, boys who don't brush their teeth, 13 year olds who think sex is the height of cool and every other kind of feral in between.
I'm in the nerds group. I'm universally shunned for the most part.
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:15, Reply)

This reminded me of Sealab 2012.
Mainly as I think there is a scene where people are going "Shuuuuuuuuuuuuuned" but I may have made that up.

I'm pretty sure I have them all on a HDD somewhere...
underneath the seeeeeaaaaaalab
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:23, Reply)

that's not at all how it works.
You are trying to apply conscious choices and decisions to a deep-seated, unconscious, biological mechanism. Or, to put it another way, you're looking at it from the point of view of the individual. This isn't chaos theory, the effect of an individual's behaviour is essentially meaningless.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:08, Reply)

It could just be that I'm stupid
but I'm failing to see the point you're making. If it doesn't affect conscious choices and decisions (I assume you mean that instead it shapes the minds that make those decisions so we are predisposed down a certain way) then how can we be aware it's functioning.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:17, Reply)

It's not that you're in any way stupid
it's a fucking difficult concept to understand let alone explain.

We aren't aware it is functioning on any meaningful level because its timescales of action are so long. "pack mentality" is a species working co-operatively, and it's how this species has always functioned.

The simplest way I can think to explain it is, say you were carrying a gene that made you work totally and completely outside the pack, you'd need that gene to, over many many generations, show itself to be more useful to the species than a "pack" gene. Which, really, couldn't happen now when you think about how intrinsic in society the pack system is.

Incidentally, we do sometimes get people who (possibly for genetic reasons) are predisposed to act against the pack. We generally call them sociopaths, and they usually die in prison, which limits their breeding possibilities*

*TMB apologises for this sweeping and faintly ridiculous simplification of sociopathic behaviour from a "nature vs nurture" argument
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:28, Reply)

I do see the point now
though sociopaths are hardly the only people who show a lack of pack mentality. After all having a gene that made you an unpack animal still wouldn't mean that you'd necessarily live/breed outside the pack, especially if born in it.

Thanks for the clearness of the explanation.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:52, Reply)

I do
But from the times we've had this sort of conversation in the past, I get the impression you don't.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:02, Reply)

True
don't get me wrong, I acknowledge you know a lot more than me in all liklihood, a vast quantity more, but that's never a valid reason for just automatically agreeing
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:06, Reply)

Oh, I'm not saying you should necessarily agree with me.
Nor would I claim to know more about it than you do. I'm just curious as to why you believe we're not entirely driven by a pack mentality.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:08, Reply)

Because all of the examples
that are given that supposedly 'prove' this are not *necessarily* attributable to a pack mentality (referring to the post above) though of course they can be. And if we were driven by a subconscious pack mentality, I'd expect a lot more uniformity of response to distressful situations, to individual *and* group reactions to events. It seems pointless to claim a pack mentality then claim something like 'well it's different for everyone and we can't really prove that it's what drives individual actions'
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:12, Reply)

distressful?

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:25, Reply)

You do make a good point - just because something can be attributed to pack mentality, doesn't mean it's necessarily the correct explanation
However I think you've gone on to confuse pack behaviour with personality. The subtle nuances of personality will cause an individual to respond differently to a given situation - take your example of distress; you'll get a whole spectrum of responses from those who stoically try to remain calm down to those whose neuroses just drive them to rock back and forth in the corner waiting for it to end. But after this terrible event is over, observe how they all flock to one another or to their friends and relatives for mutual comfort. Disasters do seem to bring people together. And the community as a whole will probably agree that it was A Bad Thing. That's the mentality of the pack, rather than individual personality.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:27, Reply)

It makes a lot more sense I guess
if you attribute the term packs on a wider basis. I don't believe in a human pack i.e. us as a species, but on a small scale I can see how people bundle together, and their individual beliefs act as a trigger to join certain groups (Westboro Baptist Church springs to mind) that act as surrogate family groups. Packs still doesn't strike me as the right word though :S
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:30, Reply)

You don't really see humanity as a whole uniting as a pack
But you can cluster it into individual packs, as you rightly say. Look at football supporters, or the way communities respond to immigrants*, and you see the very primal roots of the pack mentality. Pack is possibly not the right word, but whatever you want to call it, I think it's fair to say that 'the Pack' is what it stems from.

*_{E.g., when the charlatans from /talk get bored of an afternoon and barge in here...}
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:35, Reply)

now that's not a fair example of pack mentality.
I'm a charlatan from talk.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

The example I cite
was the way everyone on here would band together to hurl insults at JMG when he came on here to take the piss out of us for being interweb-lolfatties.

And wasn't this board only created because assorted QotWers were afraid they'd be told to piss off back to /qotw if they tried to go somewhere for a conversation when the week's question was shit?
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:41, Reply)

yeah ... but that's not evolutionary pack behaviour as such
that's more what Amberl is thinking of. It's not really so relevant in an evolutionary sense because you defending yourself from JMG is not something that you'll do all your life to such an extent that defending themselves against JMG becomes something your offspring are predisposed to do. Actually, maybe it will? who knows?

I think the football supporters thing is a good one though, that can pass as a meme from parents to children, and is a strong social bond particularly in areas where maybe there is more social depravation.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:46, Reply)

True, I was just being facetious with that argument
Although I can envision a whole generation subsequently being born with an inherited neurotic response to being called a lolfatty.

I think the main thing about football supporters is the slightly chilling parallel between that and two packs of baboons or chimpanzees squaring up to one another. (And that's just their appearance, badum-tsssch!)
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:52, Reply)

I still maintain the most surreal experience of my life
was sitting on my own on a train in Bavaria that got steamed by a load of 1860 Munich fans after Bayern fans. The whole thing was just totalled around me, first by the fans and then by riot police. And German riot police don't fuck about. A lot of blood. And I was just totally ignored by everyone concerned. Weird.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:59, Reply)

That sounds fucking terrifying
The only thing more frightening than a mob of angry apes must surely be a mob of angry apes yelling in German.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 11:02, Reply)

talk was only created
to stop /board people throwing the dummy if a thread didn't have a picture in it. Board evolution, innit? ;)

board was only created because the internet was all fields *reminisces*
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:49, Reply)

mentality doesn't seem like the right word either

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

I'd say it's deeper seated than that
pack mentality from an evolutionary point of view is why we have schools, hospitals, etc. because why should everyone teach their children to count when one person can teach a hundred and the other 99 can do something else useful? It also plays to the strengths and weaknesses of a population - you're good a fighting? defend the village. You're good at counting? work out a bartering system so we can trade all the grain we have for meat which the next village has... etc etc.

pack mentality is arguably the most important single thing in humans reaching the position they are in now, good or bad.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:33, Reply)

I think you're right
Because without a pack mentality, there's no incentive to form any sort of society. And even packs of wild animals form a 'society' of sorts - even if it looks more like just a hierarchy, it does give a lot of credence to your argument.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

it does

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

I think Vipros has a good point
that "mentality" might not be the right word. Pack mentality has negative connotations, especially amongst the UK press. behaviour, maybe.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:41, Reply)

It does
From a purely technical point of view, I think is the right word, but there a lot of undesirable connotations you have to dissociate it from.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:45, Reply)

I'm not so sure
to me it implies that it is more of a conscious thing
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:46, Reply)

The altruistic concept Dawkins talks about
Is not conscious. nothing in evolution is conscious, the timescales are not short enough for conscious decisions to convey measurable advantages. Pack mentality is not something that actively "drives" us in that we have any say or control over it. It just "is" .. and yes, we are. It would be impossible for us as species not to be. How an individual behaves is insignificant to either evolution or the smug arsehole Dawkins' argument.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:05, Reply)

But that's just not provable
not in any real respect :S I'm not really seeing the proof of a pack mentality even a subconscious one. Just how many people would it take to conclude that a biological imperative had shifted from a primary focus?
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:09, Reply)

well, the individual vs species point is a cornerstone of evolutionary theory.
Of course that doesn't mean I expect you to believe it just because I say so, but more eloquent people than I have written on that many many times.

In terms of numbers to prove an evolutionary change? it doesn't work like that exactly, but technically, you need to see a statistically significant population living in a completely different way. So, no partnerships of any kind, no joint child rearing by any combination of the sexes, no co-operative living so no towns, villages, shops, schools or education, hospitals, cars, power, computers, processed food ... nothing that you hadn't made or learned yourself without ANY input from other people other than maybe whichever single adult reared you.

And crucially, this large population living like this would need to have moved from a position that had all of the above things to not having it (or else it's not an evolutionary change towards that position). And the population would have to be thriving, and would have to be out-competing other human populations which have all the above pack advantages for it to be anything other than an evolutionary failure.

I'm pretty sure if a population like that existed we'd notice ;)
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:18, Reply)

See this makes a lot more sense
I can see where you are coming from. I might not necessarily agree that pack mentality brought us to that point, but I can see the line of working.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:27, Reply)

well for starters, it's a bit impersonal to flog someone so hard without buying them dinner first.
Alt Q: I believe that there are some people who are just lovely people, and who do altruistic things for no reason other then they want to brighten someone else's day. And given the generally miserable state of the world, I'm all for those people to keep on doing that.

In other news GLEE SEASON THREE STARTS TONIGHT! WOO! *dances*
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:53, Reply)

Because you fear I would like it.
Alt Q - Morality is a vanity, and Dawkins is still an irritating git.
(Tugnut Ex of this parish, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:55, Reply)

I read that as Monty is a vanity
And then thought he was more of a vagabond. I like the word Vagabond quite a lot
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:58, Reply)

Because any punishment meted to me
goes straight to the whipping boys.

Alt Q: I think he's wrong on that
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:57, Reply)

You kinky wench you.
fancy having "whipping boys".
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:59, Reply)

Shocking isn't it?
Saves me from any
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:00, Reply)

don't knock it til you've tried it.
Unless you're saying you have whipping boys because you HAVE tried it and found it uncomfortable.
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:01, Reply)

If anyone tried to whip me
I'd break it over their backs :)
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:04, Reply)

If Dawkins is so clever how come he looks like a child molestor?

( Colonel Dracula Two manky hookers and a racist dwarf, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:59, Reply)

yes, because clever people can choose their looks.

(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:03, Reply)

We sure can
"because we're worth it"
( Colonel Dracula Two manky hookers and a racist dwarf, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:05, Reply)

*snorts*

(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:08, Reply)

So he can lure the children to him and then preform experiments on them

( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:05, Reply)

My god, he has adapted to his environment
Will nobody stop this monster?
( Colonel Dracula Two manky hookers and a racist dwarf, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:06, Reply)

I'm afarid not
He has no problems condusting stem cell research in his basement. He cannot be stopped. He cannot be destroyed.
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:08, Reply)

Because he IS a child molester
The Vatican just released conclusive proof that it's not Catholic Priests that are rogering the altar boys, it is in fact an elite cadre of Aggressive Atheists posing as Priests in order to sully the good name of Catholicism.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:09, Reply)

Ahem
4.bp.blogspot.com/_qcr6zkRAp88/S2N8HJDqCII/AAAAAAAAAoU/7D-QEIF4GOw/s400/dawkins-watson.jpg
(Himjim died a little more inside on, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:10, Reply)

O.O
Don't ruin her for me!
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:11, Reply)

Photoshopped photo.

(PsychoChomp, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:11, Reply)

And god help me, she's still hot.

(Falstaff's Spiritual Successor, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:19, Reply)

In Soviet Russia
PyschoChomp obvious' you!
(Himjim died a little more inside on, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:37, Reply)

hahahahaha

( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:16, Reply)

I love that phrase. Used it recently in fact.
The Gouranga People were out in force (I say force. There's about six of them that do Edinburgh). Now, I've been polite to these weird hippy beggars more than enough over the years, so I now reserve the right to be a complete prick to them if I feel like it. So when I was approached by one this time, I turned, whipped off my sunglasses and bellowed "What is this? I don't know who you are, but by Jove I'll see you whipped for this insolence!" Queueue them sidling away rapidly and me feeling satisfied for the day.

Alt Q: as far as I understand it, yes he is. It's certainly a workable theory, and explains our close relationships to family members.

Although I'd have to say that the above was a pretty altruistic act, in my humble.
(Falstaff's Spiritual Successor, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:17, Reply)

The fact that I agree with Dawkins
on most things irks me no end. He's a smug, ill-bred, sanctomonious, bigotted attention-seeker.

Thankfully the fact that he can parrot logic that's been discussed off and on for centuries means that I don't have to credit my agreement with him to his own free-thinking. The opinions that he does have of his own are all pretty unpleasant.
( Kroney, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:18, Reply)

Alt Q:
Who knows, odds are he's wrong, it's just the nature of the game. Dawkins can carry on doing what he does so long as if/when he is proven to be wrong he acknowledges it and takes it on board. If he can't manage that then he can take his place among the other zealots and believers.
(Zoz prayed for twink on, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:26, Reply)