Sorry

Educate me. What is 'rap', what is 'the hip and the hop'?
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:25, 1 reply, 15 years ago)

Rapping is the vocal style.
Hip hop is the musical style and overall culture. Hence there is such a thing as instrumental hip hop, and such things as 'rappers'.

Hip hop culture has five main disciplines- rapping, DJing, producing, graffiti and breaking. All distinct threads of the same culture.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:28, Reply)

They bore me
both rap and hip-hop whatever terms you want to use
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:30, Reply)

Fair enough.
The most important musical movement since jazz in the 20s though.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:31, Reply)

Fact or opinion?
not being argumental, just interested
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:32, Reply)

I would say fact. Look at the impact across literature, music, visual art and cinema.
Not to mention the vast range of styles across hip hop as a whole, and the peculiarities of the genre- record collecting as an art in itself and the reconstruction of said records into discrete consumer items.

It's a fascinating semiotic language all of its own that only came into being through a reaction to the constraints imposed by poverty.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:36, Reply)

So do you see it as a social commentary?

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:39, Reply)

a social commentary
or a dictator of social mores amongst a section of society is the question
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:42, Reply)

No more a dictator of social mores than any other popular genre.

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:47, Reply)

Really?
You don't think rap has had a profound impact on how some parts of society have evolved recently? Indeed is not so much shaped (though in the past it was) as shaping now
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:55, Reply)

No more so than, say, Ska on Skinhead culture in the 70s/80s, Rock n' Roll in the 50s etc.
And I think it's cowardly and ignorant in the extreme to blame societal ills on musical styles.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:59, Reply)

I'm hardly blaming all
of society's ills on it! I would rather think it cowardly not to see the bad side of music, however much I love it. You may with excellent reason adore your proper rap/hiphop, but don't tell me that the majority of stuff fetishised by people who listen to it is comprised of excellent tunes. It's not a separate genre.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:06, Reply)

But that's it though.
Just because twats listen to certain music, it's not the music that's to blame for them being twats.

I blame entrenched poverty etc.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:10, Reply)

The topic
was whether the forms of rap/hiphop listened to, has a negative effect. You don't think so, I do, we'll have to agree to disagree
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:12, Reply)

I'll ask a Sociologist.
I know a couple of Doctors of Sociology.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:14, Reply)

It's a really interesting thing to look at though
incorporates a lot of topics. I could be biased of course since most generic rap/hiphop is horrifically and persistently sexist and homophobic
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:15, Reply)

No it isn't, a minority of it is. You just haven't investigated enough.

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:20, Reply)

Missing the point I'm making here
which is yeah sure if I investigated it properly it isn't. However whatever I hear of it blaring from chavvy houses, mobile phones and occasionally the radio IS. You know- the stuff people are actually listening to
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:22, Reply)

Yes, just as punk is.
There is a world of difference between quality hip hop and the pop shit like 50 Cent and Eminem.

And of course it is social commentary- all worthwhile art serves that function.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:42, Reply)

I don't think it has made an impact on cinema
to a massive extent. You have some biographic films about the genre, but it so very little conducive to mood or atmosphere that you rarely hear it used to any effect
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:43, Reply)

I don't mean as a source genre, I mean the concept of sampling and the mingling of genres. You can see it in Fincher, Scorsese and most modern directors.

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:46, Reply)

I definitely don't feel
that that technique is somehow the preserve of hiphop, might as well say Shakespeare's mixing of sources is the original sampling
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:54, Reply)

There speaks a man who has never witnessed the cinematic genius of Breakdance 2: Electric Boogaloo

( broadsword, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:54, Reply)

Excuse me Dougie Fresh....

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:56, Reply)

You're forgetting skiffle.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:35, Reply)

Does your chewing gum lose it's flavour on the bedpost over night Dav?

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:37, Reply)

All the fucking time, Jeff.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:04, Reply)

It's a cunt isn't it
*Goes away to invent bed-post proof chewing gum*
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:15, Reply)

How is producing a Hip Hop record any different from producing any other sort of record?

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:31, Reply)

The fact that it's constructed from samples.
When this is done well (DJ Shadow, RJD2, Flying Lotus) it is a wonderful thing that no other genre can do. When it is done badly (Will Smith, Black Eyed Peas, Run DMC) it is horrible to behold.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:38, Reply)

So
A good thief is better than a bad one.

Fair enough.

But why isn't the music produced original?
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:41, Reply)

Sampling is not thieving, any more than playing chords is.
Every chord has been played thousands of times, so why is playing, say, a G chord with a guitar any different to playing a G chord with a sampler? It's just a different instrument. And you can have juxtapositions with samples that add to the music thematically and at a structural level.

Why can a turntable or sampler not be considered a 'proper' musical instrument?
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:44, Reply)

I'm not saying it can't
But unless the actually play the chord themselves, rather than using someone elses' skill, they've 'borrowed' it.

(You have to keep in mind, I don't know the genre, I'm wonder how it works)
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:47, Reply)

It's not borrowing.
Anyway, even if it was, every single popular genre to a certain extent is repetitious.

So what about The Roots? They are live hip hop. It just sounds like samples. Check the clip from La Haine with Sounds of Da Police for what hip hop (and other sample based musics) can do that other genres can't.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:51, Reply)

I've seen The Freestylers a number of time at Lakota
In Bristol, and, to a point, they've entertained.

But the world of fast-cars, expensive jewelery, guns and bitches seems somewhat removed from the commentary it professes to represent.

Or is this just the 'popular' stuff?
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:55, Reply)

That's just the pop stuff.
Judging the whole genre by that is like judging heavy metal by Bon Jovi, or punk rock by Green Day.

Totally unrepresentative of what the real, good stuff is actually like.

And the Freestylers are breakbeat anyway.

To reiterate- the guns n' bling stuff is not representative of the genre as a whole.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Wed 13 Oct 2010, 23:58, Reply)

Okay
Can you post/gaz me some links to stuff that is 'genuine' for me to listen to tomorrow?

I've listened (and not understood) Raggamuffin stuff in the past, such as Tenor Fly (and enjoyed it to a point, despite not being able to understand a word of it), but a proper introduction to rap hip-hop would be interesting.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:01, Reply)

Jeff-
KRS-One, Tribe Called Quest, Cannibal Ox, Mos Def.

Just for starters.

Just go on youtube.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:03, Reply)

I'll have a gander tomorrow and gaz you.

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Thu 14 Oct 2010, 0:06, Reply)