PC is bullshit.
A friend of mine was hired to take down a dead tree in downtown Richmond. As he was doing so, a group of college girls stood on a nearby (wooden) balcony and screamed, "Tree murderer!"

Idealism run amok is always a Very Bad Thing, and PC is a great example of this. For instance- remember Dr. Watson, the geneticist who was forced to retire when he said that IQ testing in fact showed differences between the races in intelligence? Well, more than a few have stood behind Dr. Watson, as well they should: www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/0/

Jerry Pournelle's commentary on this is well worth attention:

There is more at stake than first appears. The whole notion of education requires an understanding of what techniques work best with what people. Sorting people by race is unacceptable (and we thought the 14th Amendment made it unconstitutional, but apparently not so); but if we sort by IQ, we will get significant differences in the members of each race in each group. The high IQ groups will have proportionally higher numbers of Ashkenazi Jews, Orientals, and Caucasians (roughly in the order) and proportionally lower numbers of blacks.

No one who has given an hour's thought to the subject suspects that the same education techniques that work well with IQ 110 and above will work well (or indeed at all) with IQ 90 and below. It is not that the IQ 90 and below cannot be educated. They can be. But they will learn less from formal education in techniques of abstract reasoning than the higher IQ group, and there is not one thing you can do about it. They can both learn to read; but what they ought to read differs.

On the other hand the IQ 90 and below group will learn skills through repetition -- "drill and kill" -- techniques that will bore the bejesus out of the high IQ group; and once again there is not one thing you can do about it, and all your good intentions will be for naught.

And you can insist that there is no such thing as race, but it will still be the case that when you sort by IQ, one group is going to have more people who identify themselves as black than the other.

How long do you suppose it will be before there are protests over libraries having his books?
( The Resident Loon Not a demographic. Do not measure., Thu 22 Nov 2007, 13:08, 11 replies)

IQ and PC
For the guy who quoted Jerry Pournelle (whoever he is, aside from being, seemingly, a moron): do neither you nor your source understand that IQ is such a subjective measure of intelligence that relying upon it for anything is utterly redundant?
(agamemnon, Thu 22 Nov 2007, 13:53, closed)

...
Watson is a prick, but Julian Baggini gave a fairly level-headed analysis: go to commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/julian_baggini/2007/10/binary_limitations.html
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 22 Nov 2007, 14:13, closed)

IQ tests are not a measurement of anything besides ability to do a very culturally specific set of problems.
Not only this, but black Americans have on average less advantages in life than white Americans.
Take these two things together and of course you come to the conclusion that Black people will do worse. It doesn't really mean anything in and of itself.

As for the particular writer you've quoted please take a look at this definition of racism (the first listed at dictionary.com) and compare it to what the article says:

"a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."
( Zuowan, Thu 22 Nov 2007, 14:21, closed)

Cause and effect.
The study shows that black people tend not to be as smart as others. This does NOT say that being black is the cause. In fact, there's NO suggestion of any possible cause, merely an identification of the effect.

So switch off your outrage and switch on your brains and try to think why such an effect exists (perhaps, as someone has mentioned, the lack of advancement opportunities in racist environments such as much of the US), rather than jumping to the conclusion that race is the cause and trying to hide and silence the effect.
(Musuko, Thu 22 Nov 2007, 15:43, closed)

A few thoughts...
Musuko stated it quite nicely, I thought. Cheers.

Anyway... Watson's sin was that he publicly stated that data showed a correlation between intelligence and race, and broached a taboo subject- that race might have implications for intellect and behavior. We all know that ethnicity does influence behavior- anyone care to argue that the Irish don't drink a lot?- but to say so is politically incorrect, as it might hurt someone's feelings. While he should have known better than to say what he did in public, he did not deserve to be declared a pariah as he has been. He merely stated what the data showed. Ignoring data is stupid, even if it might offend someone- as an example, the Irish, English and Native Americans are all known for a high rate of alcoholism; as I have all of these in my ancestry I need to be aware of that propensity in myself. It doesn't mean that I'm automatically going to have a drinking problem.

Pournelle is a sci-fi writer, ex military and a political adviser/think tank member. He's brilliant, but politically conservative and willing to consider things that others might balk at. I don't always agree with him, but he does raise some interesting points.

My own opinion? I agree that race is not a predictor of IQ, but can't argue with scientific data. IQ can be influenced by diet and other environmental factors, so I have no idea what to attribute it to.

Personally I would love to see all forms of racism banned, from the obvious things such as the KKK and hate crimes to the benevolent kind such as affirmative action. But this is not likely to ever happen- as Pournelle has said many times, we prefer to hold back the bright ones and push forward the not as bright ones so that nobody benefits, rather than face the unpleasant fact that not all of our children are above average and destined for greatness.
( The Resident Loon Not a demographic. Do not measure., Thu 22 Nov 2007, 17:17, closed)

Watson said that people who have to deal with black employees find they are not equal to whites.
This is what the controversy is largely about.
( Zuowan, Thu 22 Nov 2007, 17:32, closed)

Agamemnon
IQ is a factor of environment, not just genetics. Particularly nutrition. To suggest that black people are, on the whole, poorer than white people is not to stretch the truth really. Poor people have poorer nutrition; fact. Ergo, it is not racist to say there is a tendency for certain ethnic groups to have lower IQs - no one has suggested that this is BECAUSE of race; but there is a statistical relationship caused by other socio-economic factors. It is a fact (a proven fact) that poorer people on average have lower IQs than more afluent people. Ignoring something that has been proven to be true over and over again will not make it go away.

Musuko is dead right. There is a big difference between establishing a relationship and establishing a causal link. Just look at that rubbish about red meat causing cancer - when infact it is merely the case that people who eat a lot of red meat tend to eat less vegetables.
(Seance Trumpet has got no beef with a man enjoying a croissant, Thu 22 Nov 2007, 22:01, closed)

I think we're all quite racist at heart.
It's understandable and entirely natural to be fearful of a strange tribe. To deny these feelings only makes them manifest themselves in other ways. Only by holding our hands up and saying: Yes, I suppose I am quite instinctively racist, can we actually make headway on this matter. Let's own up to this thing and take it with a sense of humour.

I feel like a total pariah for even thinking this. I feel I deserve some credit for at least airing the idea.

I can't say that I've ever been racially discriminated against, but my girlfriend has a fair few man-hating lesbian friends. Every time I've had to hang around with them, I can feel instant, deep hostility. I remember thinking: Woah bitch. You haven't even had a chance to meet me and find out exactly what makes me so hateable. You just discriminated, and that's not cool.

I think there's also a slight element of 'inconvenient truth' to this debate. For example, it's well documented (no, really) that children born more than 6 weeks prematurely tend to have learning difficulties for the rest of their lives. But if it were more generally known, it would create discrimination. Schools would ask whether a child was premature or not, so they can stick them in 'appropriate' classes. Horrifying, no? And yet it's based on scientific and quite logical fact. It surely follows that a very premature baby's brain is not quite as developed as one who made it to term.

I feel sorry for Dr Watson though. The guy discovers DNA, and yet this is what he'll probably be remembered for in the minds of many.
(CerberaSpeedTwelve, Thu 22 Nov 2007, 23:08, closed)

Blowing Smoke..
Anyone who denies that race has nothing to do with physical and mental superiority is fooling themselves.

I mean, I'm a Geordie and it's been conclusively established that we're Gods own children and better in every way than less gifted races.

Bow down and worship me, scum....

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Fri 23 Nov 2007, 3:37, closed)

Sigh.......
Yes, socio-economic factors will of course have influence upon certain things, but the point is that, IF IQ TESTING WERE TO BE THE UTTERLY OBJECTIVE TESTING OF BASIC INTELLIGENCE IT CLAIMS TO BE (apologies but shouting is sometimes the only way), then such factors would be irrelevant to test results. IQ relies upon learned methods, and this is where socio-economic factors come into it - go to a shit school because you live in a poor area (not of course that all schools in poor areas are shit), and you have less chance of being taught these methods in detail.
(agamemnon, Fri 23 Nov 2007, 10:44, closed)

ermmm
This isn't pc gone mad, it's bile. The fact that race is highlighted and race alone (note no mention of circumstances in the original post) automatically means it can be used as racist propaganda. Probably by some dumb white person with an IQ of 45.
(Joey Stall, Fri 23 Nov 2007, 15:29, closed)