I Quit!
Scaryduck writes, "I celebrated my last day on my paper round by giving everybody next door's paper, and the house at the end 16 copies of the Maidenhead Advertiser. And I kept the delivery bag. That certainly showed 'em."
What have you flounced out of? Did it have the impact you intended? What made you quit in the first place?
( , Thu 22 May 2008, 12:15)
Scaryduck writes, "I celebrated my last day on my paper round by giving everybody next door's paper, and the house at the end 16 copies of the Maidenhead Advertiser. And I kept the delivery bag. That certainly showed 'em."
What have you flounced out of? Did it have the impact you intended? What made you quit in the first place?
( , Thu 22 May 2008, 12:15)
« Go Back
This question was made for me
First off, allow me to introduce myself - my name is Pavlov's Frog (formerly swiftyisNOTevil) and I am a quitter. You name it, I've quit it. I'm currently 22 (going on 13), and, ever since I left school I've been in and out of more shitty jobs than you can shake a brown sticky thing at.
Now, it may sound like boasting, but I was pretty smart in school. I could pass most exams with a minimum of effort, and I was constantly told by my teachers that I had a bright future ahead of me (they probably meant as a lightbulb salesman). During the whole of 5th year, I completed pretty much zero homework and still managed to obtain 5 highers (2 As, 2 Bs and a C). Unfortunately, being told how smart I was and finding schoolwork incredibly easy led to a certain complacency. In other words, I became a lazy bastard. Having obtained my 5 highers, I decided the best move would be to go straight to University, while my friends and classmates stayed to dick about in 6th year. So I left school at 16 and went to Glasgow Uni to study Chemistry and Biology. Biology, incidentally, wasn't one of my highers - I had taken it at Standard Grade, and assumed Degree level wouldn't be much of a jump. Oh, how wrong I was.
Uni was a nightmare - I didn't know anyone, I was still living at home and had to travel an hour and a half each way just to get there, I was too young to drink so I couldn't visit any of the unions, and to top it all, the workload was massive. I started to feel snowed under, and the pressure began to build. And what did I choose as my coping method? Why, copious amounts of weed, of course! After all, when you're feeling pressurised and alone, what could be better than a mild halucinogenic notorious for bringing on bouts of paranioa?
I began to feel worse and worse, slipping further and further into depression, which culminated in a massive panic attack on the subway while travelling to Uni. I ended up skipping classes left, right and centre and hang around with my other friends who had dropped out of school at the end of 5th year to sign on the dole (not the best choice of mates, now I reflect on it. Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing).
After 6 months of barely turning up, I eventually had a meeting with my guidance councellor (or the Uni equivalent), and, after a long chat, I told him that Uni wasn't for me, and quit.
After sitting at home feeling sorry for myself, I got a job as a Data Processor for Barclays Bank. Jesus Christ, that job was boring. It was like a never ending conversation with Gordon Brown about the history of taxation in the United Kingdom. After 3 weeks, I stopped working and simply sat at my desk, reading Terry Pratchett, until the agency asked me not to come in.
Next, I became a mortgage advisor for a certain bank in Scotland. It was royally shit. I lasted 4 months before simply putting my headset down and walking out.
After that, I drifted into shitty job after shitty job. My CV is longer than an evening with James Blunt, and contains more gaps than Janet Street Porter's teeth. I've sold life insurance, Sky TV, mobile phones, mortgages and digital cameras. I've worked in customer service for at least 3 companies. I even had a brief stint as a computer games tester, which is nowhere near as cool as it sounds. The only games I got to play were those mobile phone games for idiots who can't afford a real computer. After 3 days straight playing "Pippa Funnel's Horse AdventuresTM" I walked out.
My personal life fares no better. I have, over the course of my life, taken up the drums, judo, the piano, driving lessons, tai chi, cooking lessons and Warhammer 40K. The garage back at my Mum's house is like a shrine to my procrastination - full of judo belts, Warhammer figures and my old drum kit. I always start off with a burning passion for my latest project, which soon peters out into resigned indifference. I could blame it on my short attention span, no doubt brought on from watching too many cartoons as a child, but the truth is I'm just fucking lazy. If there was a 'Lazy Olympics', I wouldn't even turn up. The annoying thing is, every time I take up a new hobby I think, "This time I'll see it through" and I never do.
I even joined the merchant navy, during a period of panic at my directionless life (and yes, I have heard every 'Hello sailor' joke imaginable). I lasted 2 weeks, until I realised being at sea for 6 months out of every year with a bunch of hairy sailors wasn't really my idea of a good time.
I still can't decide what to do with my life. I have always wanted to be a writer - English was my favourite subject in school, and I'm a voracious reader. Every so often, I will get a burst of creativity, and write page after page of a story. Then, the well will seem to dry up, and I usually end up deleting everything I've written. It goes in cycles - one moment I'm manically typing away like a madman writing his memoirs, and the next I'll struggle for an hour to write one measly sentence. Almost all of the posts on my profile took me more than an hour to squeeze out, and were rewritten three or four times. I've even changed the first couple of paragraphs of this post twice now. Writing brings me a lot of joy, but it's a torturous process. I can never seem to silence my inner critic.
The only thing I haven't quit is smoking, and it's the one thing I really should give up.
I'd probably better quit writing, before the post gets any more epic. I hadn't actually meant to get so serious - apologies for lack of funny.
If you've lasted this far, thanks for bearing with me - I hope it was worth it. And now, I'm going to go to sleep.
Funnily enough, those are often the same words I use after sex...
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 0:42, 14 replies)
First off, allow me to introduce myself - my name is Pavlov's Frog (formerly swiftyisNOTevil) and I am a quitter. You name it, I've quit it. I'm currently 22 (going on 13), and, ever since I left school I've been in and out of more shitty jobs than you can shake a brown sticky thing at.
Now, it may sound like boasting, but I was pretty smart in school. I could pass most exams with a minimum of effort, and I was constantly told by my teachers that I had a bright future ahead of me (they probably meant as a lightbulb salesman). During the whole of 5th year, I completed pretty much zero homework and still managed to obtain 5 highers (2 As, 2 Bs and a C). Unfortunately, being told how smart I was and finding schoolwork incredibly easy led to a certain complacency. In other words, I became a lazy bastard. Having obtained my 5 highers, I decided the best move would be to go straight to University, while my friends and classmates stayed to dick about in 6th year. So I left school at 16 and went to Glasgow Uni to study Chemistry and Biology. Biology, incidentally, wasn't one of my highers - I had taken it at Standard Grade, and assumed Degree level wouldn't be much of a jump. Oh, how wrong I was.
Uni was a nightmare - I didn't know anyone, I was still living at home and had to travel an hour and a half each way just to get there, I was too young to drink so I couldn't visit any of the unions, and to top it all, the workload was massive. I started to feel snowed under, and the pressure began to build. And what did I choose as my coping method? Why, copious amounts of weed, of course! After all, when you're feeling pressurised and alone, what could be better than a mild halucinogenic notorious for bringing on bouts of paranioa?
I began to feel worse and worse, slipping further and further into depression, which culminated in a massive panic attack on the subway while travelling to Uni. I ended up skipping classes left, right and centre and hang around with my other friends who had dropped out of school at the end of 5th year to sign on the dole (not the best choice of mates, now I reflect on it. Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing).
After 6 months of barely turning up, I eventually had a meeting with my guidance councellor (or the Uni equivalent), and, after a long chat, I told him that Uni wasn't for me, and quit.
After sitting at home feeling sorry for myself, I got a job as a Data Processor for Barclays Bank. Jesus Christ, that job was boring. It was like a never ending conversation with Gordon Brown about the history of taxation in the United Kingdom. After 3 weeks, I stopped working and simply sat at my desk, reading Terry Pratchett, until the agency asked me not to come in.
Next, I became a mortgage advisor for a certain bank in Scotland. It was royally shit. I lasted 4 months before simply putting my headset down and walking out.
After that, I drifted into shitty job after shitty job. My CV is longer than an evening with James Blunt, and contains more gaps than Janet Street Porter's teeth. I've sold life insurance, Sky TV, mobile phones, mortgages and digital cameras. I've worked in customer service for at least 3 companies. I even had a brief stint as a computer games tester, which is nowhere near as cool as it sounds. The only games I got to play were those mobile phone games for idiots who can't afford a real computer. After 3 days straight playing "Pippa Funnel's Horse AdventuresTM" I walked out.
My personal life fares no better. I have, over the course of my life, taken up the drums, judo, the piano, driving lessons, tai chi, cooking lessons and Warhammer 40K. The garage back at my Mum's house is like a shrine to my procrastination - full of judo belts, Warhammer figures and my old drum kit. I always start off with a burning passion for my latest project, which soon peters out into resigned indifference. I could blame it on my short attention span, no doubt brought on from watching too many cartoons as a child, but the truth is I'm just fucking lazy. If there was a 'Lazy Olympics', I wouldn't even turn up. The annoying thing is, every time I take up a new hobby I think, "This time I'll see it through" and I never do.
I even joined the merchant navy, during a period of panic at my directionless life (and yes, I have heard every 'Hello sailor' joke imaginable). I lasted 2 weeks, until I realised being at sea for 6 months out of every year with a bunch of hairy sailors wasn't really my idea of a good time.
I still can't decide what to do with my life. I have always wanted to be a writer - English was my favourite subject in school, and I'm a voracious reader. Every so often, I will get a burst of creativity, and write page after page of a story. Then, the well will seem to dry up, and I usually end up deleting everything I've written. It goes in cycles - one moment I'm manically typing away like a madman writing his memoirs, and the next I'll struggle for an hour to write one measly sentence. Almost all of the posts on my profile took me more than an hour to squeeze out, and were rewritten three or four times. I've even changed the first couple of paragraphs of this post twice now. Writing brings me a lot of joy, but it's a torturous process. I can never seem to silence my inner critic.
The only thing I haven't quit is smoking, and it's the one thing I really should give up.
I'd probably better quit writing, before the post gets any more epic. I hadn't actually meant to get so serious - apologies for lack of funny.
If you've lasted this far, thanks for bearing with me - I hope it was worth it. And now, I'm going to go to sleep.
Funnily enough, those are often the same words I use after sex...
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 0:42, 14 replies)
I completed Pippa Funnels once.
I was incredibly bored.
On an unrelated note, *click* for your story, for it is epic indeed.
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 2:22, closed)
I was incredibly bored.
On an unrelated note, *click* for your story, for it is epic indeed.
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 2:22, closed)
You ARE me!
A younger, better academically qualified me! I'm 30 and have had several shitty jobs.... I try to think of another explanation, but I'm just heart lazy. Well... was. Trying to pull the old socks up now.....
Oh! Don't try self employment. Great boss, fantastic hours, but the wages can be disappointing unless you actually work, I found :P *click*
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 2:58, closed)
A younger, better academically qualified me! I'm 30 and have had several shitty jobs.... I try to think of another explanation, but I'm just heart lazy. Well... was. Trying to pull the old socks up now.....
Oh! Don't try self employment. Great boss, fantastic hours, but the wages can be disappointing unless you actually work, I found :P *click*
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 2:58, closed)
Sounds like me
Especially the bit about becoming lazy as anything because school work comes so easily; I've actually found Uni to be no more difficult.
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 3:53, closed)
Especially the bit about becoming lazy as anything because school work comes so easily; I've actually found Uni to be no more difficult.
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 3:53, closed)
Attention Span
I hear you about the attention span. I'm exactly the same. I've found a method that seems to work, and managed to deal with it to a degree though, at least in my personal life.
The method is that I accept that I have a pathetically short attention span, and don't even try to change it.
Whenever I take up something new, I make sure it's something that can be completed, finished, within a reasonable timeframe. 3D CGI artwork made in an off-the-shelf 3d modelling program. Levels for a computer game. A bit of fanfiction etc. Everything I do as a hobby/project must produce results relatively quickly, and be abandonable at any time, to possibly come back to later. It must not be something that takes ages to learn before getting results.
It's made me a bit happier at least. It doesn't solve the problem at all, but it's a more pleasant form of damage control
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 4:16, closed)
I hear you about the attention span. I'm exactly the same. I've found a method that seems to work, and managed to deal with it to a degree though, at least in my personal life.
The method is that I accept that I have a pathetically short attention span, and don't even try to change it.
Whenever I take up something new, I make sure it's something that can be completed, finished, within a reasonable timeframe. 3D CGI artwork made in an off-the-shelf 3d modelling program. Levels for a computer game. A bit of fanfiction etc. Everything I do as a hobby/project must produce results relatively quickly, and be abandonable at any time, to possibly come back to later. It must not be something that takes ages to learn before getting results.
It's made me a bit happier at least. It doesn't solve the problem at all, but it's a more pleasant form of damage control
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 4:16, closed)
*Clickage*
As a Glasgow alumnus I know what you mean - I came to Glasgow straight after A levels and ended up on a course I hadn't planned to do (did A levels for medicine, didn't get the grades and ended up on maths instead).
Completely identify with the multiple interests but worried about the opportunity cost of applying self to one and leaving the others behind ... ah, the agony of choice.
Good luck
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 5:15, closed)
As a Glasgow alumnus I know what you mean - I came to Glasgow straight after A levels and ended up on a course I hadn't planned to do (did A levels for medicine, didn't get the grades and ended up on maths instead).
Completely identify with the multiple interests but worried about the opportunity cost of applying self to one and leaving the others behind ... ah, the agony of choice.
Good luck
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 5:15, closed)
Maybe you should get into writing.
I have the shortest attention span in the world when it comes to reading. I dont read novels because after 2 pages Id be simply so bored and feel like Im running a marathon. Which is why I like QOTW as its lots of little stories. I found your post a pleasure to read. So yeah maybe you should get into writing. At least freelance stuff. Write something and send it off somewhere, see if you get any dosh for it. Dont delete it though later on thinking its rubbish because it might not have been :)
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 7:40, closed)
I have the shortest attention span in the world when it comes to reading. I dont read novels because after 2 pages Id be simply so bored and feel like Im running a marathon. Which is why I like QOTW as its lots of little stories. I found your post a pleasure to read. So yeah maybe you should get into writing. At least freelance stuff. Write something and send it off somewhere, see if you get any dosh for it. Dont delete it though later on thinking its rubbish because it might not have been :)
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 7:40, closed)
Hi PF
What can I say? As someone who has the lazy gene but finally beat it, I can hold out the hope of better times to come. Let's face it - it has to be better than the past right? Also on the plus side, I had no idea you were so young, just older than my daughter - your writing style has cetainly benefitted from your reading, I loved: "If there was a 'Lazy Olympics', I wouldn't even turn up" - that is good writing. And most of us 'older' QOTWers always edit our posts before posting - it shows that you have pride in your writing: a good sign.
So, my advice: can I recommend you read a book? There are several out there that will make you take a look at yourself: your preferences and strengths. It asks things like: Would you rather work in an office or on a farm? Do you like being in charge or following orders? Would you say you are creative or meticulous? That kind of stuff. 'What colour is your parachute?' is one that springs to mind, but there are a few out there. Go to the library and look in the careers section. Believe me, you are YOUNG and the world is your oyster. What you need to do is to discover what your dream job would be and then go for it. If you find that your dream job involves lying in bed all day and surfing the net at night then you should get off your arse and travel for a bit, see the world or a bit of it then come home and try it again.
I didn't stick anything until I went to uni as a mature student at 28 - I thought I was old then! Believe me, it's never too late to draw a line and start again.
I'd go on, but I don't want to bore you (sorry, couldn't resist it), but feel free to gaz me for more fatherly advice from one who knows - you only have to read my posts to see that I've been there, done that and designed the fucking t-shirt! And came out the other side part-way sane and, though, not successful, reasonably happy.
All the best,
Che
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 10:34, closed)
What can I say? As someone who has the lazy gene but finally beat it, I can hold out the hope of better times to come. Let's face it - it has to be better than the past right? Also on the plus side, I had no idea you were so young, just older than my daughter - your writing style has cetainly benefitted from your reading, I loved: "If there was a 'Lazy Olympics', I wouldn't even turn up" - that is good writing. And most of us 'older' QOTWers always edit our posts before posting - it shows that you have pride in your writing: a good sign.
So, my advice: can I recommend you read a book? There are several out there that will make you take a look at yourself: your preferences and strengths. It asks things like: Would you rather work in an office or on a farm? Do you like being in charge or following orders? Would you say you are creative or meticulous? That kind of stuff. 'What colour is your parachute?' is one that springs to mind, but there are a few out there. Go to the library and look in the careers section. Believe me, you are YOUNG and the world is your oyster. What you need to do is to discover what your dream job would be and then go for it. If you find that your dream job involves lying in bed all day and surfing the net at night then you should get off your arse and travel for a bit, see the world or a bit of it then come home and try it again.
I didn't stick anything until I went to uni as a mature student at 28 - I thought I was old then! Believe me, it's never too late to draw a line and start again.
I'd go on, but I don't want to bore you (sorry, couldn't resist it), but feel free to gaz me for more fatherly advice from one who knows - you only have to read my posts to see that I've been there, done that and designed the fucking t-shirt! And came out the other side part-way sane and, though, not successful, reasonably happy.
All the best,
Che
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 10:34, closed)
My dad
used to teach at a technical college before he retired. In his last few years there, he noticed the general decline in student ability and enthusiasm. He and his colleagues thought that they should launch a new module: Apathy and Lethargy.
Turning up to the lectures would constitute failure of the course.
Shame they never did it!
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 11:14, closed)
used to teach at a technical college before he retired. In his last few years there, he noticed the general decline in student ability and enthusiasm. He and his colleagues thought that they should launch a new module: Apathy and Lethargy.
Turning up to the lectures would constitute failure of the course.
Shame they never did it!
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 11:14, closed)
Never delete anything...
I'm the same with writing; waves of inspiration followed by an absolute absence of it.
But you should never delete anything. You never know what you can turn into a decent short story, or what you can elaborate on later. I have countless pieces of writing that I keep coming back to and all manner of short stories that I continually tweak and refine.
Whether I'll ever do anything with them I don't know, but it's good to go back to them from time to time.
That said; you're only a young'un still... don't worry too much, and leave the weed alone, it'll only make you all the more lazy.
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 11:34, closed)
I'm the same with writing; waves of inspiration followed by an absolute absence of it.
But you should never delete anything. You never know what you can turn into a decent short story, or what you can elaborate on later. I have countless pieces of writing that I keep coming back to and all manner of short stories that I continually tweak and refine.
Whether I'll ever do anything with them I don't know, but it's good to go back to them from time to time.
That said; you're only a young'un still... don't worry too much, and leave the weed alone, it'll only make you all the more lazy.
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 11:34, closed)
are you
my brother?
sounds exactly like his life story, and the ages match too
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 11:36, closed)
my brother?
sounds exactly like his life story, and the ages match too
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 11:36, closed)
I'm the same
I never finished anything either. But one day, you will figure out what that "thing" is that drives you. If I'm not inspired, I get nothing done, and leave piles of half finished rubbish everywhere. When I'm on a roll, I will work 18 hours a day until I finish. Writing may not do that for you yet, but try things that are related- it'll be in there somewhere. And you are still only 22.
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 14:37, closed)
I never finished anything either. But one day, you will figure out what that "thing" is that drives you. If I'm not inspired, I get nothing done, and leave piles of half finished rubbish everywhere. When I'm on a roll, I will work 18 hours a day until I finish. Writing may not do that for you yet, but try things that are related- it'll be in there somewhere. And you are still only 22.
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 14:37, closed)
You sound like me
Only I was too lazy NOT to scrape a degree (the other option being the dreaded work) and I'm also too lazy/trapped to leave the first job I got out of college. In 1994.
End result: 34 years old, shit job with bugger all prospects, working for a repulsive bullying oik with no redeeming personal qualities whatsoever. I earn just slightly too much to leave my job and try something new as then I won't be able to afford my mortgage. I have 30k debts too.
And my first child is due (with a violent and nasty woman who hates me) in about six weeks so more pressure...
And hey! I've a monumental booze and drugs habit that started when I was 14 (20 years in, lovely) which doesn't help either the finances or the self worth/confidence either.
So could be worse - you could be me.
*actually cries in office*
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 16:05, closed)
Only I was too lazy NOT to scrape a degree (the other option being the dreaded work) and I'm also too lazy/trapped to leave the first job I got out of college. In 1994.
End result: 34 years old, shit job with bugger all prospects, working for a repulsive bullying oik with no redeeming personal qualities whatsoever. I earn just slightly too much to leave my job and try something new as then I won't be able to afford my mortgage. I have 30k debts too.
And my first child is due (with a violent and nasty woman who hates me) in about six weeks so more pressure...
And hey! I've a monumental booze and drugs habit that started when I was 14 (20 years in, lovely) which doesn't help either the finances or the self worth/confidence either.
So could be worse - you could be me.
*actually cries in office*
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 16:05, closed)
You have the perfect b3tan profile - lazy, talented, imaginative, short attention-span, procrastinator, etc., etc.
Very few people on here won't identify and entirely understand your post. I'd guess that most of us never bothered to really push ourselves at school or at Uni or at work. Why do you think so many of us post during the day when we should be working? Attention span of a gnat, yet the ability to get the work done quickly and efficiently just so we can get back to B3ta.....
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if the entire membership of B3ta were to make an effort we'd take over the world in an afternoon...erm...not Wednesday though, obviously.
Take Che's advice - think about what you'd really like to do with your life and if you don't know yet then travel.
As far as the writing is concerned overcoming the inner critic is hard but it is also possible. Try to trick the critic by telling yourself that you'll return to the piece. So what you do is write what you want to write - anything, anything at all. Accept that it's a first draft and that it *will* be rubbish - it's a first draft and all first drafts are rubbish.
Then put it away in a drawer (literal or figurative) and forget about it for as long as you can. Many writers work on a number of pieces at once and look at them in rotation. Sometimes it's enough to leave the piece overnight, some need longer. How do you know if it's been long enough? By being able to look at it critically - by that I mean being able to see the good bits and the bad bits and also knowing *why* they are good or bad.
If you think that writing may hold a future for you then do consider going back to Uni to study it. However, always remember that studying anything at a higher level is dependent upon what you put into the course and your studying as much as it is about what the course and tutors can offer you. It's your course, you're paying for it, get as much out of it as you can and that means by putting as much in as you can - go the extra mile, be in love with your subject.
And always remember that there are plenty of us on b3ta who have more experience than we care to admit to and are only to willing to give everyone the benefit of the said experience by wittering on for ages about it.
;-)
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 17:41, closed)
Very few people on here won't identify and entirely understand your post. I'd guess that most of us never bothered to really push ourselves at school or at Uni or at work. Why do you think so many of us post during the day when we should be working? Attention span of a gnat, yet the ability to get the work done quickly and efficiently just so we can get back to B3ta.....
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if the entire membership of B3ta were to make an effort we'd take over the world in an afternoon...erm...not Wednesday though, obviously.
Take Che's advice - think about what you'd really like to do with your life and if you don't know yet then travel.
As far as the writing is concerned overcoming the inner critic is hard but it is also possible. Try to trick the critic by telling yourself that you'll return to the piece. So what you do is write what you want to write - anything, anything at all. Accept that it's a first draft and that it *will* be rubbish - it's a first draft and all first drafts are rubbish.
Then put it away in a drawer (literal or figurative) and forget about it for as long as you can. Many writers work on a number of pieces at once and look at them in rotation. Sometimes it's enough to leave the piece overnight, some need longer. How do you know if it's been long enough? By being able to look at it critically - by that I mean being able to see the good bits and the bad bits and also knowing *why* they are good or bad.
If you think that writing may hold a future for you then do consider going back to Uni to study it. However, always remember that studying anything at a higher level is dependent upon what you put into the course and your studying as much as it is about what the course and tutors can offer you. It's your course, you're paying for it, get as much out of it as you can and that means by putting as much in as you can - go the extra mile, be in love with your subject.
And always remember that there are plenty of us on b3ta who have more experience than we care to admit to and are only to willing to give everyone the benefit of the said experience by wittering on for ages about it.
;-)
( , Tue 27 May 2008, 17:41, closed)
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