"if you don't have a belief - at any level - you really wouldn't get anything out of masonry"
Except of course the missus's colleague who uses it as a useful way to advance his career in construction. I'm sure he doesn't get anything out of masonry at all by pretending to believe in the "Great Architect".

I really don't want to make a big thing of this, but honestly you sound exactly like the kind of apologisist who explains patiently why gays aren't allowed in churches or black people aren't allowed in the BNP. Just because rationalists wouldn't appreciate the funny-hat stuff, doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from the largest old boys' network in the world.

For the record, I was asked a while back by a friend from school. I declined. I've no interest in pretending to believe in a supreme being even for personal or financial gain.
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 12:55, 1 reply)

as people have said up above, and I will back up, you don't enter into masonry for financial or other material gain, or at least, you shouldn't as that's not what it's about, or indeed encouraged.
and I'm not apologising for masonry in the slightest, it's just the way it is, you can't please all of the people all of the time. I enjoy it, and it's my own choice, I was just trying to explain an answer to a question, and it's not really fair to start lumping me as an apologist akin to the Black/BNP or Gays/Church arguments as they are Political and Religious respectively in stance, and based around completely different issues. But hey ho, each to their own opinion, and all that. You sound as if your mind is pretty made up about it all, and fair play to you. :)

The entire reason for bringing it up in this QOTW is due to the rather unfair (and uninformed) treatment it gets from the conspiracy theory 'nutters' as the title suggests.
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Mon 31 Aug 2009, 14:29, closed)

I realise it's an unfair comparison and I don't want to have a go at you over it
It's just that to my mind, the stuff at the top of this post (while dispelling myths about the masons and properly so) doesn't really get to the nub of the issue. I couldn't care less if masons *do* sacrifice goats (or whatever the Conspiracists think they get up to...I've known enough witches, pagans and devil worshippers in my time to know that ceremony is just that) - it just concerns me that such a powerful and infuential institution excludes people on the basis of their (lack of) beliefs. As an atheist, I can't help thinking (cynically) it's just a Christian old boys' network with a couple of token Muslims and that masonry desperately needs to get past that if, to be honest, I'm not going to treat it with a largish amount of suspicion. About 50% of this country's population doesn't believe and that figure is going to be far higher in the scientific community, which is where I would hope a lot of the expertise that masonry celebrates is going to be coming from. I dunno, it just seems archaic and stultifying to only draw members from the rapidly-shrinking religious community when there's a wealth of untapped talent out there that really doesn't have any interest in worshipping bronze-age sky gods.

On the subject of charity, the two largest charitable donations in history were both from atheists, and they continue to pump incredible amounts of money into trying to solve the world's problems, such as eradicating malaria. It's not like atheists aren't capable of becoming better people or doing good works, and I really find it annoying when people think religous = good, more so when it's institutionalised.

Anyway, I'm probably just ranting. I've known masons all my life - I've been to a couple of events up at the lodge, hell, one even gave me a lift in his car this morning - but the religious aspect means I'm never going to be a part of it because I'm too proud to pretend, and it saddens me when I see other people affecting a religion they don't believe just to fit in.
( emvee cruor deo cruoris, Tue 1 Sep 2009, 11:30, closed)

It's no different to a nightclub having a 'no trainers' rule.
The Freemasons is a social club. It's not like people are being excluded from schools or being thrown off trains for being atheists - no one actually has to join the Freemasons, just like people in trainers don't have to go to nightclubs.
(Seance Trumpet has got no beef with a man enjoying a croissant, Tue 1 Sep 2009, 21:37, closed)