Yeah well, Thomas moore said we'd only need one car per household

( glued eel /questions/questionsyoudliketoask/post1648081, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:51, archived)

I think that's more than true
for any sensible definition of "need".
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:54, archived)

IBM said we'd only want five computers between us.

( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:55, archived)

haha
yes
and that was when they were the size of a house and had the computing power of a modern pocket calculator.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:57, archived)

your definition of need?

( glued eel /questions/questionsyoudliketoask/post1648081, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:56, archived)

yeah,
the one that means "actually needing stuff".
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:56, archived)

What if both of you worked in different places that weren't practical to get to by public transport?
Instead of buying a car, you could MOVE HOUSE. Much more sensible.
( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:08, archived)

I can see why two would be needed in many families

( Pickle Fairy is clumsily dancing away this fear, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:57, archived)

I can't.
Not unless both of you need to go to two different branches of Ikea at the same time.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:58, archived)

nor i

( well, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:58, archived)

i bet you're a pedestrian

( rosalicious i fucking love youve been framed, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:08, archived)

i've never walked anywhere in my life

( well, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:10, archived)

What about living somewhere with bad public transport
Such as the country. And working in opposite directions?
( Pickle Fairy is clumsily dancing away this fear, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:59, archived)

motorbikes.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:59, archived)

But that is just replacing one vehicle with another

( Pickle Fairy is clumsily dancing away this fear, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:00, archived)

yes it's replacing an enormous vehicle that can carry five people but only ever carries one
with a small vehicle that can only carry one.

Or bicycles, if it's less than 5 miles. Or walk. Or get a different job. Or not have both of you working (which never used to be necessary), or go and live somewhere sensible.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:02, archived)

that's hardly an option for some of us

( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:04, archived)

They aren't the most practical of alternatives though
The car may also carry children, and I'm sure not many jobs are within 5 miles if you live in the country. Maybe they both like working or need to in order to afford a standard of living they are happy with, including living in a nice house in a nice area. Why does it mean that they live somewhere which isn't sensible?
( Pickle Fairy is clumsily dancing away this fear, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:06, archived)

If you're bringing in desire, you're no longer really talking about necessity.
To talk about necessity in any meaningful way we have to set up a basic standard of living, and say that what is necessary is what is necessary to meet that standard.
( Comma, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:11, archived)

necessity would also involve your ability to do you job
and the importance of that job to society. And where you might have to live to do that job. And whether that location has sufficiently good public transport to negate the need for a car.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:12, archived)

ok some families need it,
I wouldn't say it was "many".
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:14, archived)

and I'm not disagreeing with you
but someone has to decide where the boundary is between "need" and "want" to follow that policy

good luck with that.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:16, archived)

You could just throw it back at her and go back to monitors again.
Then the circle is complete.
( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:19, archived)

If that's a criterion of necessity that you want to set up,
but we might say that it isn't necessary to do your job, as you could do another one.
( Comma, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:15, archived)

only 50 years ago hardly anyone had a car and we used to manage,
but now we're all supposed to need one each, that's what I can't get my head round. How has that happened? It seems like things have got worse.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:18, archived)

Presumably because people now are happy to live a long way from where they work, and therefore 'need' a car to get there.
Personally I like living near where I work, and would hate to lose a couple of hours of every day to a commute.
( my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:20, archived)

me too,
apparently people now travel twice as far to work on average than they did only 20 years ago, or something like that. It's competition in the job market that causes this sort of thing.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:22, archived)

Um, because industry has changed. People used to live where they worked, which is why we have row upon row of terraced housing in big cities.
Given a choice, would you live right next to a factory you worked in? I doubt it. Car = option to live somewhere not shit.
( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:21, archived)

I wouldn't mind living within two miles of it,
which is easily walkable.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:24, archived)

Indeed.
My journey to work involves a two-mile walk both ways, which is about 25 minutes.

Of course, I "cheat" and travel the other 16 miles by train.
( The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:28, archived)

What if it's a foundary or an abbatoir?
Bear in mind that if everyone lives near to their work then all your neighbours will also be your colleagues. You'll never get away from them. You'll inbreed and the freaky offspring will all work at the same place and so it goes on. Outsiders will be feared. The cycle will never be broken. If you want to see it for real visit a pit village. Then hurry back to lovely cosmopolitan Edinburgh.
( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:29, archived)

I grew up in a pit village.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:31, archived)

That explains a lot.

( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:31, archived)

I wasn't born in one,
fortunately.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:35, archived)

You can fit a hell of a lot of people in a 1-2 mile radius.
You'd only be likely to bump into colleagues if you worked in an enormous place, in which case you'd barely know any of them anyway.
( my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:33, archived)

I don't know what it's like where you work,
but there are plenty of nice areas within 2 miles of where I work, despite it being fairly close to central Sheffield.
( my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:35, archived)

you could, but what if your job is important to society?
and for you not to do it would mean someone less good doing it instead?

and if you want to philophise, if someone is good enough at a job that is important to society as a whole, could you not argue they have a moral obligation to do that job?
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:18, archived)

Does the individual have a moral duty to society?
This opens up a whole new can of worms.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:20, archived)

if you're arguing that people shouldn't have unnecessary cars
then that can only be argued from an "individual having an moral obligation to society" point of view. Otherwise, why should anyone give a shit how many cars someone else has?

*passes back can-opener and offers worms*
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:22, archived)

I'm not arguing about what they shouldn't have,
I'm only saying most people don't need them, which was the original point of dispute.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:26, archived)

true.
but that's a bit of a pointless argument, you don't NEED the computer you're typing on right now. Or your dog. Or a cooker. Or clothes. etc.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:28, archived)

Tell us your answer to that first.

( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:22, archived)

I'll have to think about it.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:28, archived)

No.
Or at least, not in such a way as it involves an obligation to do certain jobs just because they're good at them.
( Comma, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:30, archived)

so, then
if you don't have a moral obligation in your working life to benefit society if you are able -and crucially others aren't able - why should you have a moral obligation to do anything in your life that benefits society?
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:35, archived)

I'd like to make an active/passive distinction,
and say that we don't have a moral obligation to do anything, only to refrain from doing certain things.
( Comma, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:48, archived)

I'm sure you're right
only the active/passive boundary is a bit of a fucker to define.*

I don't necessarily believe what I'm arguing here, I just think it's an interesting subject.

*as in, "they came first for the Communists, and I did not speak up, because I was not a Communist"
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:57, archived)

Which means, unless you live and work in an inner-city, relying on public transport to get to work is insufficient as it is total shit.
That, and you get Dirty People on buses, and who wants to share their daily commute with that lot?
( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:15, archived)

you're both right, why is this even an argument?
sometimes a household has n+1 cars out of necessity*, sometimes out of sheer fatitude

*for some value of necessity. granted, up until 100 years ago NOBODY needed a car
( spacefish bong!, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:12, archived)

*Looks into crystal ball*
I foresee spacefish getting cold cabbage for dinner tonight. And not much in the way of conversation.
( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:15, archived)

i has eaten already, i cannot be harmed
i'm going to fall asleep any minute though
( spacefish bong!, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:16, archived)

With one eye open?

( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:18, archived)

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEXIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT LIGHT
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENTER NIIIIIIGHT
TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE MY HAAAAAAAAAAAAAND
OFF TO NEVER NEVER LAND
( spacefish bong!, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:20, archived)

I bet they did need one
they just didn't understand what that gaping brm brming hole in their hearts was until Harris H. Car filled it.
( glued eel /questions/questionsyoudliketoask/post1648081, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:16, archived)

harris h car, the designer of the morris angina

( spacefish bong!, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:19, archived)

You can't say people didn't need cars before they were invented.
They just didn't know of them, and couldn't have them anyway.

I reckon they needed them, but just didn't know it.
( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:18, archived)

Cycling isn't impractical.
Loads of people manage to cycle to work. Granted I wouldn't expect anyone to move house just so that they could only run one car when they can afford to run two, but this "standard of living they are happy with" is arguably a luxury, not a need.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:12, archived)

well, it is if you need to cycle down a muddy towpath to work
and you sometimes need to be smart and your office doesn't have a shower and an iron.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:13, archived)

the hypotheticals are getting progressively more intricate.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:15, archived)

No job 'needs' you to be dressed smartly.
That's just a luxury.
( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:17, archived)

bollocks.
now you're talking about changing the whole preconceptions of human society. Not just since the invention of the car but for the last thousand years or so.

good luck with that, too
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:20, archived)

Sheesh.

( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:21, archived)

hey, I didn't create all human preconceptions and beliefs.

( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:23, archived)

Something's gone horribly wrong when I can post something so obviously absolutely ridiculous and still
find someone to argue with me. I'm a little offended that you have such a low opinion of me that you think that I'd think such a thing. I'd flounce, but flouncing's for girls.
( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:31, archived)

it wasn't even me, either.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:37, archived)

something's gone horribly wrong
if you thing I'm actually arguing seriously.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:40, archived)

But wanting to live where they live, and therefore having to both work
Does mean that they need to get to work and sometimes only a car will do that.
( Pickle Fairy is clumsily dancing away this fear, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:16, archived)

This thread brings this to mind:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcAqR-Hs9II
(Spleep Shit, or get off the internet., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:29, archived)

they could flap their arms and fly to work

( Lisette von Falcon, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:01, archived)

quit their jobs and become subsistence farmers

( well, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:03, archived)

What if it's a polygamous family with 36 wives and 182 children.
It'd have to be a really big car if they all go on a family outing to the seaside.
( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:00, archived)

they'd need a convoy of Renaults Espace.
Imagine that.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:03, archived)

b3ta.com/talk/6171485
( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:05, archived)

hahaha
one hundred points
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:06, archived)

i bet you're a pedestrian

( rosalicious i fucking love youve been framed, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:05, archived)

I think, sometimes, we're all pedestrians. Dave.

( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:06, archived)

fuck orf!
i wear heelys.
( rosalicious i fucking love youve been framed, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:07, archived)

see, now.
we were discussing this last sunday at my marathon relay changeover thing. Is it actually against the rules to use heelys?
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:11, archived)

I know I am.
When I walk to the cake shop from the car park.
( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:07, archived)

I've got 2 and there's one of me
but then, I couldn't give a shit.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:03, archived)

I bet you don't drive them both at once, though.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:04, archived)

well, yeah, which is partly why having two is hardly harming the environment
more than having one.

I regard driving both at once as an engineering challenge, however.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:06, archived)

Working hard on overcoming the difficulties I hope

( Pickle Fairy is clumsily dancing away this fear, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:07, archived)

nope.
just wondering how many FotE supporters I can make explode due to terrible indignation.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:09, archived)

his brother Patrick took his advice on spectacles
one lens is all you need.
( scott,, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 19:10, archived)