Autonomy.
And please don't tell me that no one in the EU will want our goods and services any longer. It simply ain't true. All the remainers said no one would trade with us if we didn't join the Euro. That was a lie, and the Euro is a currency that remains in a highly precarious state, it only survives thanks to the altruistic generosity of Germany.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:46,
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It's not that nobody would trade with us
It's the complexity and potential fallout from trying to renegotiate a trade deal outside of the single market. You all seem to be totally ignorant of that, or at least seem to dilute those ramifications.
And this whole 'sovereignty' and 'democracy' argument. Surely you aren't naive enough to believe real democracy exists or has ever existed? And that this desire for it is pure political sugar coating. There's a very good reason as to why true democracy doesn't exist - because most people out there are complete fuckwits who haven't got a clue about the complexities involved in taking executive decisions. That's why we have an electorate and, gulp, a political class.
If you really asked the public what they wanted, chances are we'd see the death penalty reinstated in some way, ignoring the clear evidence that it would serve to increase crime rather than provide an ultimate deterrent. Because it 'feels' right. It's only the elite, political class that realise most of us fuckwits can't be trusted to decide these things for ourselves. For better or worse, politicians are the head to our, often blind, hearts.
Your leading Brexit lot are well aware of this. They don't want real democracy. They aren't really interested in sovereignty. They simply want the 'democratic' power to shrink the state in fitting with their own ideological views. That's all it's about.
You're a complete mug if you don't see it any other way.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:59, Share, Reply)
The scales have fallen from my eyes!
Thanks JOTS.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:01,
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I realise he's not to everyone's taste, hence the description.
I like him. Which is lucky for him, as I know exactly where he lives.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:11,
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The only person who likes Toby Young is Toby Young.
Does he live in your mirror?
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monkeon schmonkeon, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:23,
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the assumption here is that the interests of the UK dont align with the interests of the rest of Europe.
It's parochialism dressed up as self-determination
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:34, Share, Reply)
The idea that 28 countries have all the same economic and social interests
is simply absurd.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:39,
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Why?
Isn't the whole point of the EU that we're all generally on the same page regarding social and economic development?
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Happosai _,,,,_(O ; o)_,,,, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:54,
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Economically you have got to be kidding.
Eastern Europe and Southern Europe on the same page in terms of economic development? Poland, Romania and Bulgaria? Are you aware of what a catastrophe it was for Greece to join the Euro? They have bankrupted themselves for generations after bingeing on the cheap credit Euro membership allowed them. Portugal, Spain and Italy are not in a good way either.
Socially? Well, a little more subjective I guess, but take one example: abortion. It's illegal in several EU countries. I'm not pro abortion, but it should definitely be legal IMO. But if the Irish and the Poles want to keep it illegal, that's up to them, I have no desire to boss around a foreign nation on the subject.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:06,
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Your example of abortion falls down a little when you take into account that it's still illegal in one of the countries in the UK.
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VicJameson : fucking internet virgins since, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:19,
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Not really.
If the Northern Irish want to keep it illegal, bully for them too. They can have independence for all I care.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:24,
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there are rich and poor regions of the UK, it's no reason why they shouldnt be in political union
As for social policy, it's been moving in a progressive direction Europe-wide for several generations, thanks largely to institutions like the EU. Poland and Ireland are much more likely to be changing their rules on abortion than we are
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:23, Share, Reply)
Please don't lump together Poland with Romania and Bulgaria lol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Poland#/media/File:Minwages_poland_former_communist.png
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omnitruncatedkraken from Empire Algol, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 21:57,
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It is only absurd if you have an inflated opinion of yourself
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keybo was imtypingonakeyboard, now I'm not, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:58,
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why?
Generally Europeans tend to be rich, educated, liberal. Certainly compared to people from other continents. I'm struggling to think of an argument against cooperation
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:30, Share, Reply)
Yes mate. We are all the same. Same opinions, same income, all the same.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:36,
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Do you think that's what makes successful political entity?
Everyone with the same opinions and income? Good luck finding one of those on this continent or anywhere else
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:57, Share, Reply)
Germany has recently had an influx of over a million rich, educated and liberal people in less than a year.
I love the EU.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 18:09,
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What are you saying, that the EU forced the Syrians on Germany and that could happen to us too?
That's not really how I remember it.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 19:38, Share, Reply)
No.
Germany, or rather Merkel, opened her borders. By opening her borders to the world, or more specifically Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, she opened the EU borders too, as all those taken in will get German passports. I'm not suggesting that we should ignore the refugee crisis, to do so would be inhumane. But to encourage a free for all is insane. It's not about racism, it's about the capacity of social housing, schooling, health care and the welfare state. I saw a guy being interviewed in Lesbos. He spoke perfect English. He'd come with his wife and kids. Unbelievably he'd come from Pakistan. A nuclear power. What had been his job there? Senior air traffic controller at Karachi airport. When asked why he took so much risk rather than come legally, he said that this was the only guaranteed way to get social housing.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 20:02,
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amazing
this is the level of debate, you Leave idiots love a good example, well here's one: I live in Derbyshire, at all the toddler groups there are little white families where the women have fired out 6 kids each, not a brown face in sight, and you walk around town and yep not a brown face there either - no foreign accents to be found anywhere. Ask them whose fault it is that they can't get their kids into school? Whose fault is it that they can't get an appointment at the GP? The forrins is the answer. Ignorant thick cunts reading the ignorant thick right wing press. If the population is growing in an area you can bet it's the poor white working class: that's the driver - it's called natural increase. Of course austerity has nothing to do with why public services are fucked... yeah it's the immigrants.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 20:29, Share, Reply)
