OK, it's Toby Young and it's 14 minutes long, so most of you won't be interested,
but I found it a fascinating history of our relationship with Europe since 1975, and how the goalposts have constantly been moved.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:27,
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saw someone complaining about this, haven't read or watched either
zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/toby-youngs-video-nasty.html
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HappyToast Groat froth, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:31,
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Well I'll take his word for Young getting a date wrong,
but his other arguments, especially the statistical conjuring that said we get our way 99.9% of the time, I found unconvincing, to say the least.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:37,
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Autonomy.
And please don't tell me that no one in the EU will want our goods and services any longer. It simply ain't true. All the remainers said no one would trade with us if we didn't join the Euro. That was a lie, and the Euro is a currency that remains in a highly precarious state, it only survives thanks to the altruistic generosity of Germany.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:46,
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It's not that nobody would trade with us
It's the complexity and potential fallout from trying to renegotiate a trade deal outside of the single market. You all seem to be totally ignorant of that, or at least seem to dilute those ramifications.
And this whole 'sovereignty' and 'democracy' argument. Surely you aren't naive enough to believe real democracy exists or has ever existed? And that this desire for it is pure political sugar coating. There's a very good reason as to why true democracy doesn't exist - because most people out there are complete fuckwits who haven't got a clue about the complexities involved in taking executive decisions. That's why we have an electorate and, gulp, a political class.
If you really asked the public what they wanted, chances are we'd see the death penalty reinstated in some way, ignoring the clear evidence that it would serve to increase crime rather than provide an ultimate deterrent. Because it 'feels' right. It's only the elite, political class that realise most of us fuckwits can't be trusted to decide these things for ourselves. For better or worse, politicians are the head to our, often blind, hearts.
Your leading Brexit lot are well aware of this. They don't want real democracy. They aren't really interested in sovereignty. They simply want the 'democratic' power to shrink the state in fitting with their own ideological views. That's all it's about.
You're a complete mug if you don't see it any other way.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:59, Share, Reply)
The scales have fallen from my eyes!
Thanks JOTS.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:01,
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I realise he's not to everyone's taste, hence the description.
I like him. Which is lucky for him, as I know exactly where he lives.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:11,
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The only person who likes Toby Young is Toby Young.
Does he live in your mirror?
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monkeon schmonkeon, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:23,
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the assumption here is that the interests of the UK dont align with the interests of the rest of Europe.
It's parochialism dressed up as self-determination
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:34, Share, Reply)
The idea that 28 countries have all the same economic and social interests
is simply absurd.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:39,
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Why?
Isn't the whole point of the EU that we're all generally on the same page regarding social and economic development?
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Happosai _,,,,_(O ; o)_,,,, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:54,
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Economically you have got to be kidding.
Eastern Europe and Southern Europe on the same page in terms of economic development? Poland, Romania and Bulgaria? Are you aware of what a catastrophe it was for Greece to join the Euro? They have bankrupted themselves for generations after bingeing on the cheap credit Euro membership allowed them. Portugal, Spain and Italy are not in a good way either.
Socially? Well, a little more subjective I guess, but take one example: abortion. It's illegal in several EU countries. I'm not pro abortion, but it should definitely be legal IMO. But if the Irish and the Poles want to keep it illegal, that's up to them, I have no desire to boss around a foreign nation on the subject.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:06,
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Your example of abortion falls down a little when you take into account that it's still illegal in one of the countries in the UK.
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VicJameson : fucking internet virgins since, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:19,
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Not really.
If the Northern Irish want to keep it illegal, bully for them too. They can have independence for all I care.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:24,
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there are rich and poor regions of the UK, it's no reason why they shouldnt be in political union
As for social policy, it's been moving in a progressive direction Europe-wide for several generations, thanks largely to institutions like the EU. Poland and Ireland are much more likely to be changing their rules on abortion than we are
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:23, Share, Reply)
Please don't lump together Poland with Romania and Bulgaria lol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Poland#/media/File:Minwages_poland_former_communist.png
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omnitruncatedkraken from Empire Algol, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 21:57,
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It is only absurd if you have an inflated opinion of yourself
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keybo was imtypingonakeyboard, now I'm not, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:58,
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why?
Generally Europeans tend to be rich, educated, liberal. Certainly compared to people from other continents. I'm struggling to think of an argument against cooperation
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:30, Share, Reply)
Yes mate. We are all the same. Same opinions, same income, all the same.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:36,
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Do you think that's what makes successful political entity?
Everyone with the same opinions and income? Good luck finding one of those on this continent or anywhere else
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:57, Share, Reply)
Germany has recently had an influx of over a million rich, educated and liberal people in less than a year.
I love the EU.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 18:09,
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What are you saying, that the EU forced the Syrians on Germany and that could happen to us too?
That's not really how I remember it.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 19:38, Share, Reply)
No.
Germany, or rather Merkel, opened her borders. By opening her borders to the world, or more specifically Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, she opened the EU borders too, as all those taken in will get German passports. I'm not suggesting that we should ignore the refugee crisis, to do so would be inhumane. But to encourage a free for all is insane. It's not about racism, it's about the capacity of social housing, schooling, health care and the welfare state. I saw a guy being interviewed in Lesbos. He spoke perfect English. He'd come with his wife and kids. Unbelievably he'd come from Pakistan. A nuclear power. What had been his job there? Senior air traffic controller at Karachi airport. When asked why he took so much risk rather than come legally, he said that this was the only guaranteed way to get social housing.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 20:02,
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amazing
this is the level of debate, you Leave idiots love a good example, well here's one: I live in Derbyshire, at all the toddler groups there are little white families where the women have fired out 6 kids each, not a brown face in sight, and you walk around town and yep not a brown face there either - no foreign accents to be found anywhere. Ask them whose fault it is that they can't get their kids into school? Whose fault is it that they can't get an appointment at the GP? The forrins is the answer. Ignorant thick cunts reading the ignorant thick right wing press. If the population is growing in an area you can bet it's the poor white working class: that's the driver - it's called natural increase. Of course austerity has nothing to do with why public services are fucked... yeah it's the immigrants.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 20:29, Share, Reply)
Carpet bomb the lot of them, I say.
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drimble he'd been white, he'd been black, Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:16,
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Maybe, just maybe Derbyshire is just a bit crap?
Would explain why people don't want to settle there.
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Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:32,
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Is the camera connected to his head movements in some way?
maybe it's a selfie stick
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:47, Share, Reply)
I think it was shot by an old school hack who'd enjoyed a good lunch.
I'm looking at you, Jeremy Clarke.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:49,
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Didn't watch it all, but,
the first 5 minutes he goes on to explain that instead of UK being able to Veto EU laws as was promised when we joined, that has been worn away and we have very little chance of stopping EU laws from effecting us. Also explains that the EU has managed to stop/remove some laws that the UK created for itself.
What he doesn't mention (up until I'd had enough anyway) was, while this may be correct information, maybe those EU laws have made life better in Britain, maybe those UK laws that got removed by the EU were shit and we are better off without them.
A lot of people are going on about how we are at the mercy of EU rules and laws. What they fail to mention is that maybe some of those laws and rules are good for us (and may some not), but the Brexit proclaimers always spout about how they make the laws and never mention that some of them help us.
What others mention is that the people in the EU creating these rules are not elected by us. Well, that's probably just as well, look at the ones we did vote in and how they are screwing us, maybe we need some outside help.
FYI - I'm as yet undecided, and while this post may sound like I'm voting in, I'm just balancing the crap from the "Facts" video.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:49, Share, Reply)
I'm pretty happy having the combined wit of 28 countries
overruling fuckwits like Theresa May and Boris Johnson. Our own executive powers are pretty useless. The Queen just says "whatever" to most stuff and the Lords are mostly asleep
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:01, Share, Reply)
I find this angle of attack
deeply sad and perplexing. You are effectively saying 'I don't like the way my fellow countrymen vote, so let's invite a bunch of managers who do not have our best interest at heart to run us instead'.
I'm a remainer for geopolitical reasons but this argument drives me insane with anger.We can clean our own fucking beaches without stuffing Francois the small farmer's pockets with euros or letting some Luxembourger decide who fishes in our waters.
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The Ann Coulter Fan Club Babylon is burning at, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:51,
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No I am saying I think an effective executive body is a good thing
that most other countries have. We do not. The EU fills the vacuum quite well.
You can pick and choose what the EU has done well and badly if you like but I'd rather have the extra sanity check than not. And by the way, define "our" best interests - the outers seem to be deciding what's in my best interest all to readily. I like cod, I'm glad restrictions on fishing mean its not been exterminated. I like clean beaches I like workers rights etc etc
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:57, Share, Reply)
Why?
I don't trust most of my fellow countrymen to make executive, important economic decisions that could effect our future relationship with essential trading partners. Surely that's common sense.
I do not think the average van driver should have an opinion on such matters. He should be able to elect somebody who does, of course, but he should not have a direct say himself.
We need executive bodies to make informed, educated decisions not swayed by populism.
Unless you want to use idiots' votes to further your own political agenda.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:05, Share, Reply)
"We need executive bodies to make informed, educated decisions not swayed by populism."
VIVA EL PRESIDENTE!!
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others, said some fatty.
I take it you're happy for this van driver to pay taxes?
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 18:15, Share, Reply)
I think you'll find
Churchill represented the same definition of 'democracy' that currently exists - whereby we elect members of parliament to make crucial decisions for us. Sometimes against populist opinion, for the greater good. That's how it should be.
The EU referendum, by comparison, is ludicrous.
Dawkins got it right here: www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/eu-referendum-richard-dawkins-brexit-23rd-june-ignoramuses
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 18:53, Share, Reply)
That's because
You're an elitist fascist cunt. You despise your fellow man and think if only right-minded bien pensants like yourself ran everything the world would be just great. Which is despicable and disgusting.
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The Ann Coulter Fan Club Babylon is burning at, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 20:30,
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By all means place the future of your country's trade and geopolitical presence in the hands of those who don't have a fucking clue about what they're talking about. But I'm with the form of 'democracy' that currently exists. The one where the average turd thankfully doesn't have much of a say.
Cunt.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 21:14, Share, Reply)
You're a sick puppy
I'd hate to live inside your head, hating your fellow man so much that you think they don't deserve a say. Perhaps you'd be happier back in the days when only the elite had a vote. You are not arguing about policies. You are arguing that democracy is bad because it doesn't always produce the result that is 'right'.
My god. Someone please pull this guy to one side.
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The Ann Coulter Fan Club Babylon is burning at, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 22:00,
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You don't seem to understand how modern democracy works
We elect people to make educated decisions for us. We elect them on policy. We vote them out if they're shite.
There's a reason for why that is. Because, yes, most 'fellow men' simply aren't qualified to make these decisions. Unitiated in the finer workings of international trade relationships, they might well not have the country's best interests in mind. His inexperienced leanings toward populist policy might well be very damaging for the country.
Do I hate my fellow man? No. But do I trust my fellow man with absolutely no experience of global economics to make a decision that's best for the country? No. Of course not. I trust those with experience. And I would imagine most other sensible folk would reveal a wish for the the same, sensible approach to democracy.
It's the only check there is against dangerous populism. The fact that 'democracy' isn't actually as democratic as it perhaps could be. And rightly so.
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 22:27, Share, Reply)
.
What doesn't add up to me with the increased democracy argument is that if we want to export to european countries then we'll still have to obey an awful lot of their laws. If we set our own standards (and most of EU laws are about trading standards), that would just make things far harder to export and import, so it would be ridiculous not to just copy the EU on them.
At the moment, we send MEPs to debate for us. If we send Nigel Farage and he doesn't attend any meetings, then we have the power to elect someone else. As such, we have some say in how things are run.
If we leave, we'll have absolutely no say in what those laws are. That seems like a loss of power to me, not increased democracy.
Outside immigration, people who aren't cunts making the soveriegnty argument don't seem to be giving many examples of laws that they want changing. Even then, I suspect only a minority know what the options are on immigration within or outside the EU (and that's not a "the plebs don't know" comment - I don't know myself).
UKIP have been clear that they want to scrap things like maternity pay, sick pay and holiday pay - and so it at least does make sense that you'd need to get out of the EU if you want that kind of thing.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:29,
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I think you misunderstood my use of "executive"
here I meant a functioning "upper house" or some-such. But I'm with you otherwise :)
(, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 22:53, Share, Reply)
There are lots of areas where covering as wide an area as possible is important - thinking particularly environmental rules and standards in production.
The majority of EU directives seem to be about that sort of thing.
They are incredibly boring, which presumably is why the remain campaign aren't talking about toy safety and the leave campaign aren't talking about the cookie law.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 18:12,
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Indeed!
I'd prefer to have something in place to temper the current UK Government (who I certainly didn't vote in) who seem to be happy to shit on things like the privacy and human rights of its citizens.
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Happosai _,,,,_(O ; o)_,,,, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:00,
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We already have a bunch of unelected bods to do that.
It's called the House of Lords.
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Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 16 Jun 2016, 12:01,
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Ah the dreadful Toby Young
I shall save myself a full 14 minutes and have this delicious apple instead.
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thecrapgatsby isn't listening LALALALALALA, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:03,
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Jason Statham has let himself go.
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BrokenCoccyx doesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:48,
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What a pile of poorly researched bollocks that was
Typical nonsensical fantastical hyperbole from, not to put too fine a point to it, a total cunt.
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slartifartfast When all around are losing their heads, duck., Thu 16 Jun 2016, 8:46,
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