My question wasnt
“Why do you treat trans women as women”, but
“Why do you think trans women are women”
The distinction is that I would also accept that a male person who says they are a woman is indeed a trans woman. Where we diverge is that I don’t believe trans women are women, as I’ve not heard a non sexist definition of “woman” that would include male people who say they are women.
“Because they tell us they are” isn’t an answer, and certainly isn’t a compelling reason for anyone else to agree with you. That’s because a male person is not a woman by an existing definition, so all you have done is decided to remove any meaning from the term “woman”. You’re welcome to do that, but you haven’t provided a good reason for anyone else to do so.
You mention sincerity, but how are you measuring sincerity? It seems likely to me that a performance of femininity is your criteria, if not, what is a sincere trans identity and an insincere one? Examples, please? Are you able to accept that while you have a “sincerity” filter, others of us have a “reality” filter - we]here we don’t share the idea of an innate, gendered soul and so don’t accept male people are literally women, regardless of sincerity? Can you outline why I should be forced to believe otherwise, lest I be considered a bigot?
I suspect you would doubt a claim to be a vegetarian that was made by a person who was openly eating meat in front of you. I think you’d doubt a claim to be Christian by somebody who attended mosque daily.
I suspect that while you might think “he can call himself a vegetarian if he wants”, you’d understand if he was asked to leave a vegetarian space if he turned up and was clearly eating meat while saying that it didn’t matter if his behaviour was the opposite of what a vegetarian is, what mattered is that he IS a vegetarian and people needed to respect that.
So what would be your gender equivalent of a meat eating vegetarian? Mine would be a male telling me that they are a woman. What would the insincerity be as far as you’re concerned? Masculine presentation? Again, you’re forced to engage with the fact that you clearly believe that femininity = womanhood.
You haven’t yet given a good reason as to why you think “woman” describes an identity and what that identity comprises when a male claims it.
You’ve gone on to ignore every other question, and to simply reiterate that being trans is tough. I don’t doubt that having gender dysphoria is tough; I dispute that a male who has gender dysphoria is a woman for all intents and purposes.
You go on to say “when your body doesn’t look like your gender”. That looks a lot like you’re discussing a separation of mind and body, and is a statement of belief, not of fact. You’re describing discomfort with one’s sex, and discussing “gender” as a ghost in the machine. I reject that notion - we *are* our bodies. And wanting to be the opposite sex is not a compelling reason to think we are actually the opposite sex, as the fact of our sexed bodies is a reality, and the implications of being a member of the female sex is that you have life experiences that are exclusive to members of the female sex.
I’m not concerned about whether people come out as trans trivially or after much thought - my concern is what I’m supposed to do as a result of that. If a person comes out as trans and wants protection from harm as a result, they have my support. If they come out as trans and demand to be recognised as being a member of the opposite sex to all intents and purposes, overwriting the concept of sex with the concept of an innate gender identity, I will maintain that that is an unreasonable demand, as I don’t share that belief and will not reshape reality around a belief I don’t hold.
When someone says they are trans, I believe that they are trans. I don’t believe they are a member of the opposite sex to their actual sex. My question was why you believe that they are.
You have casually dismissed opposing views as bigotry and as ignorance. I’m here telling you that I have studied this at length, examined all sides, and found trans activism to be regressive and sexist. You don’t have to promote opposing views in order to engage with what the opposing view is; you have failed to do so.
Here’s a challenge for you - I suspect you see me as anti trans. Tell me a shift you think it’d be reasonable for me to make in my position, and why you think that shift is necessary for me to move away from the “evil” you mentioned earlier. Do that, and I will read think and explain either why I will do so, and why I won’t. Deal?
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 14:01, Reply)
Deal. My response to your challenge then is this: stop conflating sex and gender, and accept the WHO definitions.
Gender is a social construct.
It is associated with, but not exclusively dependent on, sexual characteristics. It is an identity we assume when we behave in ways that align with societal gender norms.
We have "girly girls" and "manly men", or "girly boys" and "butch women" (using common pejoratives) - and alongside that, we can have people with female sex organs who live as men, and people with male sex organs who live as women.
If gender is the characteristics of women and men that are socially constructed, then someone who lives with those characteristics IS a man, or a woman, as defined by those characteristics.
I suspect you may not agree with that definition. You've repeatedly conflated sex and gender. But these are the definitions used by the WHO:
www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-determinants/gender/gender-definitions
- and by the UK government:
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21
I've not suggested that there's a mind-body duality (nor would I, it's not something I believe), but there absolutely is a difference between gender and sex. The experience that trans people tell us is exactly that pre-transition, they feel their body doesn't fit their gender.
So using those internationally agreed definitions, from medical organisations, I believe that yes, you should "overwrite the concept of sex with the concept of innate gender identity".
(
Invisible Wizard - 12th Level Errorer, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:38,
Reply)
I am not conflating sex and gender
The conflation of sex and gender is inherent in trans activism’s argument that gender identity determines and overwrites sex categories.
In the absence of your activism having an actual definition of “woman”, a male who says “my identity is woman” *is* saying that in all practical terms they are a member of the opposite sex.
Don’t be disingenuous; I’ve done this before.
You’re the person who said you’d look for “sincerity”, so tell me - what is an insincere trans woman?
Describe such a person without using expectations of behaviour or appearance associated with sex. You can’t. And you’re still fundamentally, wilfully misunderstanding the opposition. I *know* there are men who aren’t “manly” - it’s gender ideology that suggests feminine men are women.
But you still can’t define your terms, so tell me your definition of “woman”. Non circular, please.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:17, Reply)
For avoidance of all doubt
Trans activism’s whole thing is conflating sex with gender. Here’s how:
“Your innate sense of self (gender identity) determines the sex category you can place yourself in” IS what trans activism demands. It’s why Hubbard’s gender identity ends up with Hubbard competing in the category created for female physiology.
It is obfuscation on your part to accuse opponents of the conflation, when what we do is use clarity of language to point out that you are using self declared sense of self to mean a person should be considered to be the opposite sex.
You don’t actually recognise the right of female people to have places reserved only for female people, so it’s you guilty of the conflation, I’m just observing it, using language that enables me to describe it. Linguistic tricks won’t work on me - I will keep you to clarity. So unless you respect that female people can have spaces for female people only, you don’t get to say that this isn’t about sex.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:27, Reply)
My post below took a while to type
so these messages were not here when I wrote it.
IMO it is vital to not conflate sex and gender.
It is exactly that which is causing this whole issue. There are some feminists who want female only spaces, and want to defend what female is.
Call yourself a man or woman if you want, it doesn't and shouldn't matter, but you can't turn yourself from a female into a male, or vice versa.
If a space is for women, then all women, including trans women, should be allowed in. If a space is for females only, then sorry, it's for females only even if they identify as a man.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:01,
Reply)
I don't recognise "female spaces" as excluding trans women, no - partly because that is illegal to do.
I've given you my definition of "woman" - it's the WHO definition, the UK law's definition.
The law says that a trans person's gender identity is protected. Excluding someone from a space on the basis of that trans status is not lawful.
In response to your question about when I would doubt someone's gender identity claims, I used their sincerity as my personal test for agreeing with the gender identity of person. If the person appears to be sincere in their statement, then I choose to accept it. If you can't imagine what I mean by that, I really don't know how I could possibly explain it to you.
There is no such thing as an "insincere trans woman". Such a person is lying - they are not a trans person.
I'm only responding to you here because originally you called me out by name in your post to that TERF's blog, and made bad faith arguments against a principle I advocate.
If you're going to continue to brush off the legal definitions I've presented, then I can only assume you're not interested in discussion.
(
Invisible Wizard - 12th Level Errorer, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:23,
Reply)
" If you can't imagine what I mean by that, I really don't know how I could possibly explain it to you.
There is no such thing as an "insincere trans woman". Such a person is lying - they are not a trans person."
I admire this allyship, but in practice how on earth can it possibly be actioned? This is where it all breaks down for me. There is absolutely no objective truth in this concern, it's all based on personal testimony and how you interpret the validity of that testimony. That makes it incredibly difficult ethically for healthcare professionals involved in trans care if they are required to supervise any kind of medical transition (yes, I know not all trans people seek medical transition - but it is increasing) or authorities for allowing Self ID trans people access to women and girl only spaces.
Why would someone lie? Because people lie all the time. Obviously they're "fake trans people", as you sort of claim, but even so - it's still proves there's no objective truth here. The fact a rapist can change from a male to female prison shows their Self ID claims were believed by the system sincerely and that it caused untold harm. It'd be great to live in a society where we can spot liars, but I think you'd have to be incredibly naive to believe that utopia exists. I'm sure it's a rare occurrence, like much crime thankfully, but that's not how we mitigate risk in terms of sex-based divisions.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:34, Reply)
Whoah, hold up there
You're posting links from Mermaids, a 'charity' even the BBC disowned, a 'charity' that has a laissez-faire attitude to personal data and was fined for it, a 'charity' that lost it's interfering challenge in the Keira Bell case, and yet here you are calling people out for quoting, in your words, a "TERF's blog".
As others have pointed out, you have supplied no credible rebuttal to the encroachment on female's safe spaces, in fact you reiterate it here.
Quite apart from your crusade, it seems to me you simply want to pile opprobrium on those who oppose your unsupportable views by lobbing around pejorative terms like TERF while quoting from discredited organisations, all the while barely disguising a wish to erode further the hard-fought rights of females to their own safe spaces.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:42, Reply)
No it is not illegal
Single-sex service providers can choose to exclude transgender people where there are ''proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim''.
An example given by the Equality Act is that organisers of group counselling for female sexual assault victims could exclude a trans woman if they judged that clients would be unlikely to attend the session if she was there.
However, refusing a trans woman entry to the women's toilet in a pub is likely to be unlawful.
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My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 21:27,
Reply)
If personal testimony is the basis by which someone is/isn't trans...
Then how is it even possible for that testimony to be a lie?
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 12:41, Reply)