Deal. My response to your challenge then is this: stop conflating sex and gender, and accept the WHO definitions.
Gender is a social construct.
It is associated with, but not exclusively dependent on, sexual characteristics. It is an identity we assume when we behave in ways that align with societal gender norms.
We have "girly girls" and "manly men", or "girly boys" and "butch women" (using common pejoratives) - and alongside that, we can have people with female sex organs who live as men, and people with male sex organs who live as women.
If gender is the characteristics of women and men that are socially constructed, then someone who lives with those characteristics IS a man, or a woman, as defined by those characteristics.
I suspect you may not agree with that definition. You've repeatedly conflated sex and gender. But these are the definitions used by the WHO:
www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-determinants/gender/gender-definitions
- and by the UK government:
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21
I've not suggested that there's a mind-body duality (nor would I, it's not something I believe), but there absolutely is a difference between gender and sex. The experience that trans people tell us is exactly that pre-transition, they feel their body doesn't fit their gender.
So using those internationally agreed definitions, from medical organisations, I believe that yes, you should "overwrite the concept of sex with the concept of innate gender identity".
(
Invisible Wizard - 12th Level Errorer, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:38,
Reply)
I am not conflating sex and gender
The conflation of sex and gender is inherent in trans activism’s argument that gender identity determines and overwrites sex categories.
In the absence of your activism having an actual definition of “woman”, a male who says “my identity is woman” *is* saying that in all practical terms they are a member of the opposite sex.
Don’t be disingenuous; I’ve done this before.
You’re the person who said you’d look for “sincerity”, so tell me - what is an insincere trans woman?
Describe such a person without using expectations of behaviour or appearance associated with sex. You can’t. And you’re still fundamentally, wilfully misunderstanding the opposition. I *know* there are men who aren’t “manly” - it’s gender ideology that suggests feminine men are women.
But you still can’t define your terms, so tell me your definition of “woman”. Non circular, please.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:17, Reply)
For avoidance of all doubt
Trans activism’s whole thing is conflating sex with gender. Here’s how:
“Your innate sense of self (gender identity) determines the sex category you can place yourself in” IS what trans activism demands. It’s why Hubbard’s gender identity ends up with Hubbard competing in the category created for female physiology.
It is obfuscation on your part to accuse opponents of the conflation, when what we do is use clarity of language to point out that you are using self declared sense of self to mean a person should be considered to be the opposite sex.
You don’t actually recognise the right of female people to have places reserved only for female people, so it’s you guilty of the conflation, I’m just observing it, using language that enables me to describe it. Linguistic tricks won’t work on me - I will keep you to clarity. So unless you respect that female people can have spaces for female people only, you don’t get to say that this isn’t about sex.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:27, Reply)
My post below took a while to type
so these messages were not here when I wrote it.
IMO it is vital to not conflate sex and gender.
It is exactly that which is causing this whole issue. There are some feminists who want female only spaces, and want to defend what female is.
Call yourself a man or woman if you want, it doesn't and shouldn't matter, but you can't turn yourself from a female into a male, or vice versa.
If a space is for women, then all women, including trans women, should be allowed in. If a space is for females only, then sorry, it's for females only even if they identify as a man.
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My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:01,
Reply)
I don't recognise "female spaces" as excluding trans women, no - partly because that is illegal to do.
I've given you my definition of "woman" - it's the WHO definition, the UK law's definition.
The law says that a trans person's gender identity is protected. Excluding someone from a space on the basis of that trans status is not lawful.
In response to your question about when I would doubt someone's gender identity claims, I used their sincerity as my personal test for agreeing with the gender identity of person. If the person appears to be sincere in their statement, then I choose to accept it. If you can't imagine what I mean by that, I really don't know how I could possibly explain it to you.
There is no such thing as an "insincere trans woman". Such a person is lying - they are not a trans person.
I'm only responding to you here because originally you called me out by name in your post to that TERF's blog, and made bad faith arguments against a principle I advocate.
If you're going to continue to brush off the legal definitions I've presented, then I can only assume you're not interested in discussion.
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Invisible Wizard - 12th Level Errorer, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:23,
Reply)
" If you can't imagine what I mean by that, I really don't know how I could possibly explain it to you.
There is no such thing as an "insincere trans woman". Such a person is lying - they are not a trans person."
I admire this allyship, but in practice how on earth can it possibly be actioned? This is where it all breaks down for me. There is absolutely no objective truth in this concern, it's all based on personal testimony and how you interpret the validity of that testimony. That makes it incredibly difficult ethically for healthcare professionals involved in trans care if they are required to supervise any kind of medical transition (yes, I know not all trans people seek medical transition - but it is increasing) or authorities for allowing Self ID trans people access to women and girl only spaces.
Why would someone lie? Because people lie all the time. Obviously they're "fake trans people", as you sort of claim, but even so - it's still proves there's no objective truth here. The fact a rapist can change from a male to female prison shows their Self ID claims were believed by the system sincerely and that it caused untold harm. It'd be great to live in a society where we can spot liars, but I think you'd have to be incredibly naive to believe that utopia exists. I'm sure it's a rare occurrence, like much crime thankfully, but that's not how we mitigate risk in terms of sex-based divisions.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:34, Reply)
Whoah, hold up there
You're posting links from Mermaids, a 'charity' even the BBC disowned, a 'charity' that has a laissez-faire attitude to personal data and was fined for it, a 'charity' that lost it's interfering challenge in the Keira Bell case, and yet here you are calling people out for quoting, in your words, a "TERF's blog".
As others have pointed out, you have supplied no credible rebuttal to the encroachment on female's safe spaces, in fact you reiterate it here.
Quite apart from your crusade, it seems to me you simply want to pile opprobrium on those who oppose your unsupportable views by lobbing around pejorative terms like TERF while quoting from discredited organisations, all the while barely disguising a wish to erode further the hard-fought rights of females to their own safe spaces.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:42, Reply)
No it is not illegal
Single-sex service providers can choose to exclude transgender people where there are ''proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim''.
An example given by the Equality Act is that organisers of group counselling for female sexual assault victims could exclude a trans woman if they judged that clients would be unlikely to attend the session if she was there.
However, refusing a trans woman entry to the women's toilet in a pub is likely to be unlawful.
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My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 21:27,
Reply)
If personal testimony is the basis by which someone is/isn't trans...
Then how is it even possible for that testimony to be a lie?
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 12:41, Reply)