a little father-daughter violence.
Junior cloud 1 is fucking ruined. Despite our plans for well behaved respectful children, we have succeeded in raising a 4 year old spoilt bastard who takes every opportunity to throw a proper wobbler. She recently decided that she will not do any kind of time-out. If we try she'll just trash everything in reach.

We've therefore resorted to the bear-hug time out. If she won't sit on her own, we'll 'help' her. It was during one such occasion that she decided the best course of action would be to chomp on my forarm. She was biting hard enough to break skin and the only thing I could think was to pull my arm in to hold some sort of headlock and stop her really clamping down and removing a chunk of flesh. I had my own teeth clenched and was holding a strained red grimace in pain.

It was this point that my wife walked in the room. The look on her face showed that she thought i'd lost it completely and was trying to strangle our first-born. I still have the scar and thanks to the patience I thought was beyond me, she still has her teeth.
(Greencloud Wanted to go fishing on, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 8:43, 19 replies)

Been there, done that, got the T shirt.
It gets better, eventually. School will sort her out. But next time, you'll know to keep your hands away from her mouth.

BTW, has she pretended to calm down and gone for your eyes with her fingernails when you let go? MrsScars got her head back just in time, or she'd be wearing an eyepatch now.
(all my scars face forward possesses 2.5% of a hyperalloy combat chassis, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 9:43, closed)

Ye gods
I don't have any kids so, I'm not really qualified to judge but ----- I am wondering, are these kids normal kids ? Is this normal behaviour for kids these days ? Or would you (one) suspect there is some sort of behavioural or personality issue at work here ? (Other than being a total little bastard that is).
I'm not being deliberately controversial, I am genuinely asking. The kids I know (few admittedly) don't behave like that as a rule - the ones that have had diagnosed behavioural and mental difficulties. (I had a relationship some years ago with a guy with three kids, all boys of various ages with autism, ADHA, and personality disorders. One of them was extremely violent, he was a big lad for eleven - that was a very difficult two years).
(womanwhocanonlylivewithdogs, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 11:08, closed)

It's the luck of the draw
Some kids go through a rabid phase, some don't. The eye-gouging attempt was a one off, and the whole thrashing and kicking phase lasted less than 6 weeks. All of it before her 4th birthday.

If they are going to go through it, far better when they weigh less than you do.

Now? We feel nothing but pride in her, although the homework could be done a bit quicker.
(all my scars face forward possesses 2.5% of a hyperalloy combat chassis, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 12:16, closed)

No, that is not normal behavior.
None of my kids ever did that. The closest it got was after my ex and I separated when my middle child would get angry at his mother and start smashing up her stuff. After a time he stopped doing it, but it was a bad couple of years.

Fortunately for him, he never tried that with me.
( Wanderer, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 14:47, closed)

Nope.
Not normal behaviour in the slightest.
These kids need a really good smack.
I do smack my kids, but I've only had to do it a couple of times. The old 1.2.3 works a treat, and they usually behave on 1, and I hardly ever get past 2.
Strangers in the street comment on how well behaved and polite my kids are.
Parents are too soft nowadays, I see it in the playgroups.
You're not helping children by being too soft on them, you are in fact breeding the next generation of chavs.
I'm so proud of my children for their brilliant behaviour, and I'm proud of myself for raising them that way.
Nothing to do with luck of the draw.
( user_names_suck, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 15:38, closed)

I agree wholeheartedly with this.
weeblaireau can be a little bugger but i insist on discipline and respect.
the result? a happy child who knows where the boundaries are.
oh, yes, the old 1,2,3 works a treat. had to use it yesterday at a birthday party, only got as far as 2 and that was with her in positively wound-up mindset.
( blaireau69 , the Cumbrian Travis Bickle., Mon 13 Dec 2010, 10:59, closed)

um
seriously, give her a slap.
(jennymnemonic, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 11:50, closed)

regrettably I have done.
A couple of times I lost my rag and smacked her legs for kicking or hand for hitting. It really doesn't work as she just goes more ape shit. I feel like an abusive cunt for doing it. I think i'd have to really hammer her into submission to the point of heavy bruising to 'win'.

To be fair it's only in a full tantrum she gets that bad. I think the root is that she's been so spoilt so she's jealous of having to share everyone and everything with little cloud #2.
(Greencloud Wanted to go fishing on, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 12:43, closed)

ive worked with some very difficult children with varying degrees of what psychologists call 'behavioural problems', ive also raised (despite what my contributions to this thread might suggest) a very well adjusted son of my own...biggest thing to learn when working with kids is "know your child" - sounds like you do to me, the world and his wife will wanna have their say and im sure intervene / give dirty looks if she tantrums in public, but ur 'holding' technique is a tried and trusted method for control and one that staff in childrens homes are trained to do with out getting themsleves hurt (ok its called restraint but its essentially the same idea)- basic psychology says that all behaviours are reactions, you know what shes reacting to (cloud #2)so it might not seem like it atm but in that regard you are halfway there...i wish u luck, it may be a long hard road - but hey no-one said bein a parent was easy, or if they did they were lying
(dirtycowgirl saw underworld and they blew me away, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 18:06, closed)

Indeed.
Being a parent is extremely challenging, especially if you're doing it right.
( Wanderer, Sat 11 Dec 2010, 23:22, closed)

Parenting right?
I'd have to say, in my advanced state of old age and disrepair (accelerated by fatherhood) that I don't know if I've ever done anything in this part of my life "right".

The only thing I can hope is that I've done the "least bad" at any particular moment in time.

He and I get on like a house on fire, so I haven't effed it up too badly. Yet.
(Large Hardon Collider Bah Bloody Humbug, Sun 12 Dec 2010, 1:18, closed)

Sorry, I was being a bit flip in giving such a short response.
What I should have said is that being a parent is never easy if you're making the right choices. I remember reading one of the Travis McGee novels ("Pale Gray For Guilt"), in which Meyer comments that the right thing to do is invariably the hardest. (Exact phrasing: “In all emotional conflicts the thing you find hardest to do is the thing you should do.” —Meyer’s Law) I've often reflected on that, and believe that he's right. In any ethical situation, the easy way out is almost never the morally right thing to do.

Translating that to parenthood, doing the thing that's easiest for you as a parent is seldom what really should be done. As a parent you're not in a popularity contest, you're trying to teach your kid how to survive on his/her own when you're not around to guide them. That means saying no to buying them whatever they want so that they don't grow up to blow all their cash on stupid stuff; it means rousting them out of bed on the weekend to rake leaves and making them do their daily chores so that they learn a work ethic; it means denying them things like a car that they really want as a teen so that they can learn what it means to work for something.

Spoiling a child and giving them everything that they want will only cause them grief later in life. Letting them have their way every time they tantrum will result in no self control as an adult, with predictably dire consequences. Being a "cool parent" who hangs out with them as a friend results in them not having a true role model to look up to later in life.

My kids have all hated me at one time or another, but as they've gotten older they've come to appreciate what I did for them and how I've raised them as they look at their peers. All of them can work a job and earn money, they can all cook for themselves and keep house, they can all change their car's oil and swap out a flat tire, they all know how to save for the future- and they all know that ultimately they'll be okay as a result. They've all made their peace with me now, and that's the greatest reward of all- that they're able to care for themselves, and are comfortable with their relationship with me.

None of us are perfect, and I've certainly made mistakes with them along the way, but overall I think I've done pretty well by them.
( Wanderer, Sun 12 Dec 2010, 4:52, closed)

I think he's doing ok
In that he realises spoiling has gone on and now serious efforts are in play to stop it.

Greencloud - I think someone has already mentioned restraint - I can't find a video on youtube but the way teachers are trained to restrain a child who is kicking off safely is to get their wrists in the soft bit of skin between finger and thumb so you can't accidentally pinch or squeeze too hard, pin their wrists either behind their back or by their sides with the adult stood behind them, then get your hip in the small of their back. Having had this done to me as a demo it's very effective, you really can't struggle out of it easily and it's very hard to accidentally hurt the child. As they are facing away from you and all your body parts are well away from theirs it's very difficult for them to bite or kick as well! Apparently you can also sit down with them in this hold until they've calmed down. Might be worth a try if she's actually biting.

Another suggestion (bearing in mind I don't know what you've tried and what has or hasn't worked already!) is the old rewards based system tagged onto essentially a punishment. Every time she kicks off take away one of her favourite toys (yes, I'm well aware the first couple of times this is going to make things much worse, but bear with me), so the toy deprivation in itself is the punishment rather than a time out (although the first few times she will kick off so will need a time out as well) but make it clear that if she behaves she can "earn" her confiscated toys back. Make the behaviour you expect clear, don't just tell her she can have it back "when she behaves". Suggestions would be if she can get through the rest of the evening without having another tantrum, or if she cleans her teeth and gets ready for bed on her own the first time you ask her to.

I don't know if any of that will be any help at all and I'm not a parent so can't offer my own experiences, sadly. However my mum has been an infant teacher for nearly 40 years and coped with some horrific behaviour and she's one of the best people I know for advice when it comes to children so I'm learning from the best!

Good luck.
(Petite chien is going to do science to it, Sun 12 Dec 2010, 10:47, closed)

If she bites your arm
It's easiest if it's your arm, push it towards her (not too hard though), so it opens the jaw. It's a shock to the biter, makes it difficult to keep a grip on you and will make the little bugger think twice before biting you again.
Plus the same method can work on your dogs.
(Malcav, Sun 12 Dec 2010, 10:39, closed)

tssst!

(gtfomh, Sun 12 Dec 2010, 11:57, closed)

Like this you mean?


I really should know better, but well... meh!
( jim_bob can herd cats., Sun 12 Dec 2010, 18:45, closed)

That was a great episode.

( Another_tragic_case wished he hadn't eaten all the cake, Mon 13 Dec 2010, 8:48, closed)

Just want to clarify......
Please bear in mind the QOTW when reading the posts. Thanks for the replies and for the concern and genuine parenting suggestions offered. I would like to state quite clearly though that:

I was overstating things for dramatic effect.
The biting incident was a one-off.
She does get a RARE smack when deemed necessary. I would NEVER beat her and god help any fucker who ever does while I'm alive.
I don't consider myself any kind of expert, but by any comparisons I'm not doing too badly. My kids are well developed for their respective ages and 99% of the time behave impeccably. (pfft!)
(Greencloud Wanted to go fishing on, Tue 14 Dec 2010, 0:54, closed)

I like the part where everyone glosses over the fact that it was bad parenting that made it that way - self confessed 'spoiling' of it from the outset...

( Amorous Badger NAKED BEA ARTHUR PHOTOS 4U, Tue 14 Dec 2010, 15:45, closed)