Mourning. Going back to Uni.
I'm not frightened of failure at all, just don't want to be stuck with ridiculous debts for ever.
(Bear Pookie The Frankly Challenged. Halloween is coming to town., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:24, 1 reply, 15 years ago)

I understand
I think it's awful that you finish Uni having to pay the equivalent of a small mortgage.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:29, Reply)

It'll be 9 grand a year for fees, plus I still have to live as well
Madness.
(Bear Pookie The Frankly Challenged. Halloween is coming to town., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:38, Reply)

It is madness
I don't understand how anyone is supposed to be able to afford it without getting into debt for the rest of their lifes. Maybe you can study in Spain, where it still is free (or almost)
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:41, Reply)

I don't speak Spanish,
which is a major drawback unfortunately.
(Bear Pookie The Frankly Challenged. Halloween is coming to town., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:43, Reply)

Yeah, it might be a problem
well, then, I don't know what to suggest. I wouldn't want to get into such a debt myself at the moment.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:50, Reply)

Silly Aber, education isn't for poor people
if they got educated, they might start thinking they had the same rights as rich people. Imagine the chaos!
( The Light in Chains don't touch the Pope's boner, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:52, Reply)

the problem isn't anything to do with rich or poor.
It's a societal failure to understand that higher education is not some right everyone has. It is a right of intellectual priviledge, not financial. If we accepted that, stopped trying to get everyone who can tie their fucking shoelaces together into uni, then we wouldn't have a HE system that cannot be supported by the state.

That, and the tories, of course.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:58, Reply)

the rich poor thing is stupid anyway
when it comes to this. A large proportion of people won't pay up front, but use loans, so it makes no difference what your circumstances are before you go to uni, you are still in the same boat.

My folks are reasonably high income middle-class, and as such I was screwed at uni because I get the max fees (at the time) and minimum loans etc. Poor people were a shitload better off than I was.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:00, Reply)

And stop reproducing!
Who's going to pay for our pensions. No, wait, if they have no education, they have no good jobs, they're on benefits... I see a flaw on this plan.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:01, Reply)

It would still be free here
if we weren't so ridiculously obsessed with getting 50% of the population into higher education.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:55, Reply)

^this
fucking stupid
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:57, Reply)

Yes
I don't know why it's so importanta that almost everybody has to have a degree. There are really good jobs, well paid, safe and stable that don't need a degree. My brother didn't study a degree, and he's got a job for 4 years now, happy as a bunny, with a fixed income. My sister study a degree and she's on permanent search of scholarships to pay for her next year's research; can't afford a house or even holidays.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:03, Reply)

I would say that of my friends half of the most successful ones
didn't go to uni.

I'm glad I did, not least because I met Mrs V there, but because it's hard to get into civil engineering without having done so these days.

If I were to go through it now though I'd seriously consider an apprenticeship or something instead.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:05, Reply)

I agree
I like my job and couldn't have got it without a degree. However, I wonder what would have happened if instead of listening to my mother and got into Uni, I would just done what I wanted and keep writing. I wouldn't have met Mark, probably, but I don't think I'd have done too badly.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:24, Reply)

sounds about what I'm dealing with at the moment. it's scary.

(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:46, Reply)

It's more than scary
it's a disgrace, to ask young people to put such an ammount of money to pay for their education. I don't know what I would do, finish the University and having to pay a loan like that.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:51, Reply)

the americans manage just fine
with much bigger debt
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:52, Reply)

Americans are crazy
and the debt of the average american as well as the debt of their country, is just massive. Other countries manage with free or almost free education just fine.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:05, Reply)

I'd be genuinely interested if you can provide an example of a country
that has a properly democratically elected government, a safe and stable economy, and the same level of HE participation as the UK, that still has a fully state funded HE system. Seeing as how (looking at Europe at least) I think I can rule out every country on the basis of at least one of those four points.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:19, Reply)

you're making the mistake of allowing facts to get in the way again

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:22, Reply)

Seriously
I hate the way the HE system is here, but I'm pretty certain the reasons are much more deep seated than a generic "blame the government again" ... So I am genuinely interested in an example of how it can work and be free. I just don't think there are any. It's very easy to talk about the grass being greener when you can't actually see the other grass.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:25, Reply)

I can see the other grass
I studied in Spain, as did all my friends. None of them were rich, we were all medium-low incomes. I got a bit of a reduction on my fees for being in a big family and for having good marks, but I know other friends who didn't. None of us or our parents had to get into debt to pay for uni.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:28, Reply)

Spain is ruled out
both on the grounds of lower % HE participation and on not even being close to having a stable economy. Sorry. It's all very well slinging public funding at education but if you bankrupt the country and the Eurozone has to bail you out, that's what's known as a technical fail.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:29, Reply)

Spain is not in bankrupt
at least not yet, no one has bailed Spain, and, as I've said before, the problem with our debt is the corruption and the millions that go to politicians for doing nothing; as they can have 2 public salaries (unless everybody else), don't pay taxes, get a fixed pension after 8 years of work...

But yes, lower %HE helps too, and I think that's right. And I think that's why the UK is having so much trouble. Too many people going to Uni.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:35, Reply)

not yet, no. but there is a major emphasis on "yet"
but, regardless, Spain doesn't really count on my conditions above. Although I see advantages in proportional fees system like in Spain. We used to have something similar here, but it's very expensive to manage and very easy to defraud or exploit (kids of rich divorcees tended to get full grants, for example) ... but if you can get round that, it's a good system.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:47, Reply)

Not full state funded HE system
but people with lower incomes do get it for free. People with the highest marks get it for free too. Mediocre and rich people pay for everyone else to go to Uni.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:26, Reply)

you know that we have that here, too, right?

( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:28, Reply)

However
you complain that people with medium incomes have to pay the same as people with high incomes. If you're good or poor you get it for free, then the people who pays is who has to pay.

Problem is that, as I see it, you have to be very poor to get it for free here, and if you go past the mark, you have to pay the full bill.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:36, Reply)

that, I agree, is a bit of a problem.
I think it is to do with ease of adminstration of the system, but that doesn't make it right.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:48, Reply)

it's not a disgrace
it's an inevitability of the system as it is. The fundamental flaw is in mindset.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 9:59, Reply)

I don't know
how do other countries manage? Less money for benefits, less allowing bussiness to evade taxes, and more money to Universities.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:06, Reply)

smaller percentage of the population going to university

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:08, Reply)

no, lower % of people going into HE, I expect.
(the benefits thing really is a massive load of Mail inspired bullshit, you know that, right? we really don't spend a fortune on benefits here. Try, oh, say, Ireland as a comparison)

Also, a lot of other countries allow high levels of private funding of universities. Financially useful, but academically and morally very questionable.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:13, Reply)

I think you're right there
too many going for HE.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:32, Reply)

I don't mind really, because loan gets auto-deducted from my pay once I earn over 45,000 AUD a year.
that seems like a huge amount of money to me.
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:21, Reply)